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DC middle-schoolers who behave can get $100 a month

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This is crazy. We have to pay for kids to behave?

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{"commentId":2580299,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

For years, school officials have used detention, remedial classes, summer school and suspensions to turn around poorly behaved, underachieving middle school students, with little results. Now they are introducing a program that will pay students up to $100 per month for displaying good behavior.

Beginning in October, 3,000 students at 14 middle schools will be eligible to earn up to 50 points per month and be paid $2 per point for attending class regularly and on time, turning in homework, displaying manners and earning high marks. A maximum of $2.7 million has been set aside for the program, and the money students earn will be deposited every two weeks into bank accounts the system plans to open for them.

The system has 28 middle-grade schools. Rhee will select the schools to participate in the pilot program.

{"commentId":2580299,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:06 PM EDT
{"commentId":2631512,"authorDomain":"roybatty"}

Why not just split it with the teachers? It would probably double their salary......

{"commentId":2631512,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"roybatty"}
  • 2 votes
#1.1 - Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:56 AM EDT
{"commentId":2640846,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

because then it'd reward those teachers who aren't good?

And yes I know that may spark/reignite the debate of how do you decide which teachers are good.

and some say the solution is more testing but this rubs me the wrong way

{"commentId":2640846,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:20 PM EDT
{"commentId":2657401,"authorDomain":"angela593"}

Scott- money for good marks does not work. What works is tough scrutiny within the first 3 years of teaching. The tough scrutiny sorts the good from the bad. Regretfully, we do not have the master teachers with the power to do this, and many school principals do not have the people skills to mentor new teachers. Thus, everyone gets tenure and the rest is history.

{"commentId":2657401,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"angela593"}
  • 2 votes
#1.3 - Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:24 AM EDT
{"commentId":2662250,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Quite true. What grade do you teach, Angela? Friend request headed your way

{"commentId":2662250,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 1 vote
#1.4 - Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:19 PM EDT
{"commentId":2665657,"authorDomain":"angela593"}

Scott- my certifications are in music and administration and taught general music k-8. Currently, have emergency cert. to go anyplace I am needed.

{"commentId":2665657,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"angela593"}
  • 2 votes
#1.5 - Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:32 AM EDT
{"commentId":2670786,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}
Scott (Scoop) ButkiDeleted
{"commentId":2770108,"authorDomain":"angela593"}

Scott- --

or attending class regularly and on time, turning in homework, displaying manners and earning high marks.

The title says behavior, but the quote includes attendance, homework, and high marks, so the reward is not just for good behavior.

Been at school the last three days and we have many students who behave, but who are extremely unmotivated when it comes to academics. The teachers work, prod, and attend to expert teacher strategies.
Misbehavior is not a major problem, the kids do not want to be at odds with their teachers or suspended, because the social aspect of school is so valued.

I believe the studies show that when students attend school regularly academic achievement goes up. However, our kids have good attendance records because school is their favorite club, where they can hang out with their friends, eat free lunch, be safe and cool.And I believe they love the friendship of the teachers and the school process. Regardless of this, our state test scores are the lowest in the state. Students respond to teachers who build intellectual and motivational relationships. The teacher demonstrates capacity to teach, with an invisible (instruction-ally visible) quality that inspires student investment in their own learning. Some teachers just get better results than other teachers and it is not always easy to understand why this is so. All students should receive money support all of the time for good grades and that is not going to happen, since this is probably another fad.

{"commentId":2770108,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"angela593"}
  • 2 votes
#1.7 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 8:28 AM EDT
{"commentId":2771669,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Thanks for the comments and insight, Angela

{"commentId":2771669,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 1 vote
#1.8 - Fri Sep 5, 2008 10:25 AM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":2581443,"authorDomain":"angela593"}
Attribution theory (Weiner, 1980, 1992) is probably the most influential contemporary theory with implications for academic motivation. It incorporates behavior modification in the sense that it emphasizes the idea that learners are strongly motivated by the pleasant outcome of being able to feel good about themselves. It incorporates cognitive theory and self-efficacy theory in the sense that it emphasizes that learners' current self-perceptions will strongly influence the ways in which they will interpret the success or failure of their current efforts and hence their future tendency to perform these same behaviors.

http://education.calumet.purdue.edu/vockell/EdpsyBook/Edpsy5/edpsy5_attribution.htm

An important assumption of attribution theory is that people will interpret their environment in such a way as to maintain a positive self-image. That is, they will attribute their successes or failures to factors that will enable them to feel as good as possible about themselves. In general, this means that when learners succeed at an academic task, they are likely to want to attribute this success to their own efforts or abilities; but when they fail, they will want to attribute their failure to factors over which they have no control, such as bad teaching or bad luck.

The success of this program still rests with excellent teaching that motivates and engages the student.

{"commentId":2581443,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"angela593"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:27 PM EDT
{"commentId":2581878,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

I agree but doesn't greed become a factor too?

{"commentId":2581878,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 2 votes
#2.1 - Mon Aug 25, 2008 6:06 PM EDT
{"commentId":2583679,"authorDomain":"LarryH"}

When you promote kids way past (2+ years) their level of competency excellent teaching doesn't compensate for the deficiencies in the student. Their coping strategies like disrupting class (to be absolved of responsibility, i.e., 'I didn't do my work because the teacher...'), copying the work of their peers, cheating on tests are relied on more than the teacher because the student doesn't want to admit they can't do the work, can't read, can't sit still to do hard school work, etc.

{"commentId":2583679,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"LarryH"}
  • 2 votes
#2.2 - Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:30 PM EDT
{"commentId":2584978,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

I'm reminded of a common problem where some teachers bribe kids with candy and other prizes. The problem is when they get to other teachers they refuse to reach the same level without said bribes... so what happens when these kids transfer.. or get to high school

{"commentId":2584978,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 3 votes
#2.3 - Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:37 PM EDT
{"commentId":2701035,"authorDomain":"davjohn"}

I can get more quality, and long term, results out of a dog, using the reward/bribe method than I can with a person. The dog doesn't even need the self confidence. People stop responding without the bribes, and will not reach to higher goals. There was a time when people learned that the only person I need to be better than is who I am right now. Competition is a good tool to teach a comparative reaching of goals, but the ultimate purpose is to be better than I was yesterday, and plan to be better tomorrow than I am today. Paying students to do the right thing does not achieve that end. The reward is in doing enough, not in reaching for better.

{"commentId":2701035,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"davjohn"}
  • 1 vote
#2.4 - Tue Sep 2, 2008 3:48 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":2583654,"authorDomain":"angela593"}

Scott- good point. Will all students receive money? Will the funding be sufficient? Students hate unfair practices. Students respond to good teachers and authentic adult relationships, more than money. Students many times enjoy candy, points, and like to work for success. I have seen children behave, stay on task, and probably learn while working for points, tokens, and candy. It usually works when implemented and managed by a strong effective teacher. Money alone will not fix much anything. This might work for some personality types.

What if a child is sickly, but has great grades. What if a child attends 80% of the days, has perfect grades and so on. This creates more problems than it solves in my opinion. Consistency of management could be a nightmare for the teacher, and I can hear the parent phone calls now. Yes, greed comes quite naturally to the human heart. So greed and competition might inspire, but practically speaking, the students know that there is probably not enough money to go around. The rewards of learning, like the rewards of love--are Learned young, enjoyed and shared throughout life, and sustain the soul and motivation. Money is an abstract concept for someone who does not pay the bills.

The results of the meta-analysis revealed that from preschool all the way to college tangible rewards are harmful to intrinsic motivation when they are given for engaging in, completing or doing well on some task whereas rewards that were unexpected or task-noncontingent had no effect on intrinsic motivation. Verbal rewards on the other hand, which are most frequently unexpected, were found to have an overall enhancing effect on intrinsic motivation as they provide an affirmation of competence

http://edsserver.ucsd.edu/~cgammill/Inquiry.html

Middle school children do not need bribes, they need excellent parenting and excellent teachers.

{"commentId":2583654,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"angela593"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#3 - Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:26 PM EDT
{"commentId":2583782,"authorDomain":"kick-boxer"}

Where can I enroll in this school? I think I could almost behave well enough to earn some BIG bucks! Or maybe not.

{"commentId":2583782,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"kick-boxer"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#4 - Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:41 PM EDT
{"commentId":2584025,"authorDomain":"angela593"}

Larry - you have some ideas that make broad generalizations. These are honest observations. Children who slip behind academically are very difficult to turn around, especially, as they go past the 5th grade and age 10 approximately.

When you promote kids way past (2+ years) their level of competency excellent teaching doesn't compensate for the deficiencies in the student. Their coping strategies like disrupting class ... copying the work of their peers, cheating on tests...

Teachers do make a difference every day. I have seen the behaviors you describe, but I have seen tough students turn around. We must not give up. Children need us to advocate to their needs.

Cheating, disrupting class, and terrorizing a class need tough discipline. Many bright students disrupt class, call out, cheat, and steal precious instructional time and this is a tragedy. Sadly, political correctness and the supremacy of individual rights and the limited power of schools to deal with highly disruptive students is a huge problem.

{"commentId":2584025,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"angela593"}
  • 3 votes
Reply#5 - Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:04 PM EDT
{"commentId":2585004,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Teachers do make a difference every day. I have seen the behaviors you describe, but I have seen tough students turn around. We must not give up. Children need us to advocate to their needs.

Cheating, disrupting class, and terrorizing a class need tough discipline. Many bright students disrupt class, call out, cheat, and steal precious instructional

oh I love teachers. I went through a master's program to become a teacher before veeering into special ed.
but i'm not sure this is the solution.

{"commentId":2585004,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 1 vote
#5.1 - Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:40 PM EDT
{"commentId":2587195,"authorDomain":"angela593"}

Scott- Education suffers from fads. It reminds me of a person who seeks the perfect diet, only to find out that moderate exercise and eating 3 healthy meals a day still fulfill the human need adequately.

In you 2.3 above you note that young children respond to extrinsic rewards. What about as they get older? Child development expert I am not, but we respond to rewards differently as we grow cognitively and psychologically. Little rewards motivate adult audiences, but not for the long haul. The promise of candy from my professor did not sustain me through my research paper.

{"commentId":2587195,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"angela593"}
  • 2 votes
#5.2 - Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:26 AM EDT
{"commentId":2587891,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}
The promise of candy from my professor did not sustain me through my research paper.

No, what sustained you was the carrot (it will be approved and move you closer to a degree) and the stick (it might get rejected if it sucks)

One fascinating part of working with special needs is that the rewards are so different. Want to hear my favorite example?

{"commentId":2587891,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 2 votes
#5.3 - Tue Aug 26, 2008 8:13 AM EDT
{"commentId":2604848,"authorDomain":"angela593"}

Scott- you send out the bait? sure send on your favorite example. Oh the subtly of the adult education world. but like NV, sometimes, not so subtle ;0)

{"commentId":2604848,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"angela593"}
  • 1 vote
#5.4 - Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:46 AM EDT
{"commentId":2613769,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

well, I work with adult special needs mostly because around here special needs in the schools aka special ed jobs usually don't provide benefits or imply the job is temporary.

We had one guy whose biggest thrill was to announce the buses were in at the end of the day. So when he would move his hands to lift tables (i became quite adept at ducking thrown chairs and tables) I would usually notice the shift (I've learned the key is to watch the eyes and the hands) and I'd say, "Buses are in?"
and he'd hesitate because he knew if he misbehaved he wouldn't get to announce "the buses are now in."

Sure enough, he'd stop what he was doing because either the moment or impulsed and/or his desire to say the buses are in outweighed that impulse.

When the buses came in you could tell at that school if he had a good day based on whether it was he or the school secretary announcing the buses were in.

{"commentId":2613769,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 1 vote
#5.5 - Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:13 PM EDT
{"commentId":2613797,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Incidentally it started out as "the buses are in. hang up," then he'd say the name of the school secretary.

I tried to explain he didn't need to say the "hang up" part as part of the announcement over the speakers but he misunderstood and changed it to
"The buses are in. Please hang up" which was indeed more polite.

{"commentId":2613797,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 1 vote
#5.6 - Wed Aug 27, 2008 7:16 PM EDT
{"commentId":2618748,"authorDomain":"angela593"}

Scott- can you see me smiling.

would usually notice the shift (I've learned the key is to watch the eyes and the hands)

absolutely.

many a miss step precluded when watching eyes and hand

teachers need to be social scientists

he'd hesitate because he knew if he misbehaved he wouldn't get to announce "the buses are now in."

Have worked a little with this type of student and can picture the scene.

I have a great admiration for those who work with special needs students. Thanks for sharing.

{"commentId":2618748,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"angela593"}
  • 2 votes
#5.7 - Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:28 AM EDT
{"commentId":2621873,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Thanks!

Want to know the irony of my life? I went from writing and reading full-time (now it's just a hobby) to working with a population which rarely reads and writes.

The guy I worked with primarily at that school was deaf, autistic and had down syndrome.

So working with him all my skills - writing, reading - were useless. Instead it became all about the eyes and facial expressions and gauging when something was about to happen preferrably BEFORE it happened, be it biting someone or throwng things.

{"commentId":2621873,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 2 votes
#5.8 - Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:54 PM EDT
{"commentId":2625586,"authorDomain":"angela593"}

Scott- writing a hobby? do you sleep? Your career reminds me of the professional musician who works as an IT during the day in order to make money and plays in the orchestra at night for the love of music.

{"commentId":2625586,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"angela593"}
  • 2 votes
#5.9 - Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:49 PM EDT
{"commentId":2627101,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

I work 2 pm to 8:30 a.m. with my special needs "boys" and during the hours in between i'm usually found at my coffee place. Whether at home or at work I usually am reading or writing.
Oh adn I sleep at the guy's houses.
I refer to the coffee house as my newsvine office.

{"commentId":2627101,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 1 vote
#5.10 - Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:34 PM EDT
{"commentId":2634758,"authorDomain":"angela593"}

Scott- my brother, was fired from a corporation in his mid forties, and took a job similar to yours. He is with the child 8am - 6pm. He has found is to be challenging, but rewarding too. Our school is under construction, dirt, all over, 1000 students arrive on Tuesday, 80% of the faculty has under 5 years teaching experience, 65% free lunch, and the school is located in a large city, on a busy street. Since 9/11 we have practiced security drills and lock downs, we learn more each day how to make the school more safe for all, but as I have said before, a person bent on hurting someone in the school, will find a way to get around any plan, no matter how finely practiced.

Perhaps some very small schools with a very cohesive population in an extremely dangerous environment might require more guns, otherwise, guns should not be on school property, except as handled by highly trained, ethical, law enforcement officials.

When my school was built 40 years ago it was in a nice, middle class crime free neighborhood. That is no longer the case. Individual freedom, when it threatens a school, does not trump group freedom, safety, and rights. Police must patrol school neighborhoods and keep citizens from carrying guns within the proximity of the school grounds. Parents, mayors, citizens need to open their eyes and physically help patrol the school grounds, if necessary.

{"commentId":2634758,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"angela593"}
  • 3 votes
#5.11 - Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:00 AM EDT
{"commentId":2640913,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Thanks for sharing about your brother.

{"commentId":2640913,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 2 votes
#5.12 - Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:22 PM EDT
{"commentId":2665699,"authorDomain":"angela593"}

Scott- mixed the school gun stuff in oops. wrong thread.

{"commentId":2665699,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"angela593"}
  • 2 votes
#5.13 - Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:36 AM EDT
{"commentId":2740384,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

I'll let it pass.. this time.

{"commentId":2740384,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 1 vote
#5.14 - Wed Sep 3, 2008 9:45 PM EDT
Reply
{"commentId":2621966,"authorDomain":"JimmyJames75"}

Gimmie a break. See what not spanking your kids leads to now?

{"commentId":2621966,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"JimmyJames75"}
    Reply#6 - Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:03 PM EDT
    {"commentId":2701450,"authorDomain":"davjohn"}

    When I was 6 I was seen by a psychologist who diagnosed me as dyslexic. Then I was diagnosed as having "Non-Specific Learning Disabilities." That was the best term they had for it then. Today, I know the root of the issue. I had a very difficult time through school. Reading has been a weakness. I often have a hard time discerning the point of what's written or said. My writing isn't that great. Too often, I use the wrong words or phrases trying to get my point across. Math is my worst subject. My teachers didn't help me set goals. They had no expectations of me, and they let me know it frequently. If I had a failing grade, they'd read it off in the list of all the other grades, but they'd often add comments such as: "I didn't expect any better." I was then told that I wasn't smart enough for college. I should learn a trade, as if there is something wrong with learning a trade, and work for someone else for the rest of my life. 2 years after I graduated from high school I started at a community college. At this point I've attended 7 colleges in 20 years, and if all goes well, I should have my degree within 6 months.
    I've never had a mentor, a supporting teacher, or a coach to stand behind me to help. I can't help but wonder what ever happened to others like me, and what would have become of us had we had mentors to help us along.

    {"commentId":2701450,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"davjohn"}
    • 2 votes
    Reply#7 - Tue Sep 2, 2008 4:10 PM EDT
    {"commentId":2702497,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

    Thanks for sharing your story, dayjohn. I am pleased you opened up about it.

    {"commentId":2702497,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
    • 1 vote
    #7.1 - Tue Sep 2, 2008 5:06 PM EDT
    {"commentId":2740426,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

    Dayjohn, I'd love your thoughts on my memoir piece about teaching.

    {"commentId":2740426,"threadId":"339728","contentId":"1784268","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
    • 1 vote
    #7.2 - Wed Sep 3, 2008 9:47 PM EDT
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