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A cynical idealist; To Read Me Is to Know Me (Mostly)
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Should We Pay Students to Study And Learn?

Read ArticleArticle Source: The Washington Post
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excerpt:"THERE ARE a lot of good reasons children should want to do well in school. Joy in learning, going to college, getting a better job, living a richer life are tops. Those arguments, though, haven't worked with many -- in particular poorer -- children. Too often they see education as irrelevant, even a waste of time. Would cash change their minds and their habits? That notion is behind a proposal making headlines in Maryland, and, despite all the raised eyebrows, it's worth trying.

Baltimore city schools have gotten permission from the state to spend nearly $1 million to pay students (up to $110 per student per subject) who attend tutoring sessions and show progress."

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{"commentId":1440508,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

That's what is happening in Baltimore where students are being paid to attend tutoring sessions. Some would say learning its its own reward. What do YOU think?

{"commentId":1440508,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#1 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:27 AM EST
{"commentId":1542574,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

The New York Times has a story on the issue today

{"commentId":1542574,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
    #1.1 - Wed Mar 5, 2008 9:52 AM EST
    Reply
    {"commentId":1440543,"authorDomain":"quixiotic"}

    To be honest, I didn't respect education as I should have when I was in school, I merely showed up, goofed off, and graduated. I see the logic though, in some areas, it's a faux-pas to get tutoring sessions, I don't believe they should get paid to attend, maybe the tutors should get paid, that might make more incentive for kids to become tutors in specific fields. Great find, Scott. Sure wish I could've gotten some extra scratch for learning, I definitely would've studied more if that were the case!

    {"commentId":1440543,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"quixiotic"}
    • 2 votes
    Reply#2 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:45 AM EST
    {"commentId":1440563,"authorDomain":"Spaman"}

    This has to be one of the best examples of a misguided liberal idea I've seen for a while

    It's immoral bribery and will not produce honest students who can become worthy citizens.

    They have done similar things in the UK, where kids get rewarded for attending school

    It borders on insanity - there are so many things wrong with it...

    {"commentId":1440563,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"Spaman"}
    • 3 votes
    Reply#3 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:55 AM EST
    {"commentId":1440571,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

    When I first head of this it was because they were paying the school administrators more because the students scores improved and that sure caught my attention. I didn't realize until later the students were also getting money.

    {"commentId":1440571,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
    • 2 votes
    #3.1 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 8:59 AM EST
    Reply
    {"commentId":1440696,"authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}

    I think students should be taught how to study. No payment.

    {"commentId":1440696,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
    • 3 votes
    Reply#4 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 9:54 AM EST
    {"commentId":1441193,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}
    think students should be taught how to study. No payment.

    I think everyone would agree with that in theory. The question becomes, what do you do when that doesn't work? When that isn't enough?

    {"commentId":1441193,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
    • 2 votes
    #4.1 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:32 PM EST
    {"commentId":1441352,"authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}

    Ask Division by Zero. He has a theme that reads something like

    The beatings will continue until morale improves

    seriously? The system appears arse upwards to me. Incentivise teachers to make sure students go to school to learn. If they don't learn much (or enough), penalise the teachers. This sounds like a cop out by those responsible for education policies. But hey, what do I know about education? Especially in a country that I've only visited few days at a time till visa expiry!

    {"commentId":1441352,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
    • 2 votes
    #4.2 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 1:06 PM EST
    {"commentId":1446672,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

    OK I'm going to take off my hat as an educator and put my education reporter hat on (I covered the schools as a reporter before leaving journalism to become a teacher.) Incidentally of my four mentor teachers two quit within the year so either the profession has major problems and/or I'm some kind of education leper.

    There's a few competing arguments that should probably be mentioned. One effect of No Child Left Behind has been not only more careful tracking students progress but tracking who progresses under what teacher. Sounds good, right? The problem comes when you have, say, a fourth grade teacher who starts the year with half the class at a second grade reading level and the other half at a third grade reading level. If she's lucky she might get half the class up to the reading level they're supposed to be at. But some would say she failed in not bringing everyone up to fourth grade level.

    So one argument is penalize the teachers who aren't doing well. But the problems with that are 1) unions. I'm usually pro-union but what happens when unions and tenure are protecting bad teachers? 2) the kind of thing I just explained above, namely how do you decide what progress means? is it how well the class did as a whole? how the student with special needs did (that student's progress being more carefully monitored than others by NCLB) and/or the minority students (also monitored and tracked separately.)

    Here's how this all plays out in Maryland: When there's a school that doesn't meet the state standard of Adequate Yearly Progress certain actions occur. When that happens for a second the punishments get more severe with the big scary one being that the district will have to pay for students to get additional educational help (this gets really interesting in rural districts.)

    So what do you do when you have a failing school? What they do in Md is "reconstitute it" -or, essentially, give everyone there a pink slip. Everyone at the school is told they have to reapply if they want their jobs. The administrators are often automaticaly transferred elsewhere. So you may end up with totally new administrators, as much as 50 percent or more of teachers new to a school but with the same students as before.

    It reminds me a bit of the card game 52 card pickup (where you just throw all the cards in the air.

    How well are the cards shuffled before and after you toss the cards? are they going to be more shuffled and random after you toss it? Maybe. Does that mean it'll be better?

    {"commentId":1446672,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
    • 1 vote
    #4.3 - Thu Feb 7, 2008 7:35 PM EST
    {"commentId":1446687,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

    The other approach is rather then try to identify, isolate and get rid of the bad teachers to instead try to identify and reward the really good teachers. Again, this is good in theory but hard in application. This can lead to teachers fudging data and test scores to make improvements appear bigger than they are.

    Personally I support the approach of rewarding good behavior - be it by a student or teacher - rather than punishing bad behavior. So I can see the logic here of paying good teachers and if the money for students was for students making marked improvements I could get behind that.

    But giving money to every student who goes to a tutor or something like is occuring here seems like it'd be else effective.

    {"commentId":1446687,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
    • 1 vote
    #4.4 - Thu Feb 7, 2008 7:40 PM EST
    {"commentId":1447711,"authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}

    Some good insights there Scott. Worthy of an article I think. Knowing you, it's probably in the works. Or already out there:-)

    {"commentId":1447711,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"raatkiraani"}
    • 1 vote
    #4.5 - Fri Feb 8, 2008 5:14 AM EST
    Reply
    {"commentId":1440749,"authorDomain":"b-shaughnessy"}

    This is a really bad idea. Rewards and punishments are the lowest form of education, said someone wise.

    It's cliched but it's true - education has to be its own end, ultimately about enlightenment and not making money! The priorities are out-of-whack with this whole thing.

    {"commentId":1440749,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"b-shaughnessy"}
    • 2 votes
    Reply#5 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 10:16 AM EST
    {"commentId":1441289,"authorDomain":"greglujan"}

    Why is education such a sacred thing? Why does it have to be?

    I go to work every day, I don't mind my job, but if I didn't need to exchange my labor for money to purchase goods and services (ie: when I win the lottery) I certainly wouldn't sit in a cubicle all day.

    The reality is, this will work for some kids, it won't work for others. Some kids do really well with the journey and others need a destination. We're all that way. Some of us need to love our jobs, others are quite content to look at it as an exchange and don't need a whole lot of passion involved.

    I personally am of the sort that this type of thing wouldn't have been effective, but I've known plenty of kids who were quite motivated by reward based systems, and produced results. I think the key is assessment and selection for the program based on likelihood that a student will actually succeed in it.

    {"commentId":1441289,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"greglujan"}
    • 1 vote
    Reply#6 - Wed Feb 6, 2008 12:51 PM EST
    {"commentId":1446689,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

    A related question: Was anyone here given any kind of financial reward and/or punishment in response to grades?

    I think I'll write up a memoir piece tonite explaining the Butki monetrary policy on report cards.
    In case I forget to mention it someone remind me to tell you the story about Star Wars. No, not the movies - the defense system.

    {"commentId":1446689,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
      Reply#7 - Thu Feb 7, 2008 7:40 PM EST
      {"commentId":1447440,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

      Raat et al,

      You know how you're always asking how I find time to write everything? Well, tonite is an example of me running OUT of time. I planned to write, before going to sleep, this promised memoir piece but the next thing I knew I'd written this political bias seed (which could – and maybe should – have been an article instead) and it was 9 pm and I hadn't had dinner and I could go and read and respond to comments of my other articles and seeds or create something new or go offline for a few hours and listen to some music and put the laptop away. I opted for the latter.

      {"commentId":1447440,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
      • 2 votes
      #7.1 - Fri Feb 8, 2008 12:54 AM EST
      {"commentId":1471254,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

      I never came back to write this. I'm such a slacker!

      Meanwhile does anyone have any comments on what I wrote above)

      {"commentId":1471254,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
        #7.2 - Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:31 PM EST
        {"commentId":1514593,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}
        {"commentId":1514593,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
          #7.3 - Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:38 PM EST
          Reply
          {"commentId":2052879,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

          Here's how it played out - but with the teachers getting the money - in Washington D.C.

          {"commentId":2052879,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
            Reply#8 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:31 AM EDT
            {"commentId":2054327,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}

            The student can always go back to the way things used to be. They went into to work force at 12-14. My grandfather finished the 8th grade before having to start working. In many parts of the world, it is still the way things are in much of the world. Our youth have been spoiled to the point of no return. My nieces and nephews all have their own color TVs in their rooms. My bedroom was a corner of the basement. My father took my "bedroom" and made it the dining area. The room was barely large enough for the table and 6 chairs.

            {"commentId":2054327,"threadId":"214726","contentId":"1281735","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
            • 2 votes
            Reply#9 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:05 PM EDT
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