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A cynical idealist; To Read Me Is to Know Me (Mostly)
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Member Since: 2/2007Last Seen: 11/28/2009

What would the U.S. federal government have to do to win back credibility? Or is that even possible at this point?

Live Poll

Can the U.S. Government gain back its credibility?

  • Yes
    56%
  • No
    32%
  • It's like your virginity - you can't get it back
    12%

Total Votes: 25

Live Poll

U.S. Government gain back its integrity?

  • Yes
    68%
  • No
    32%
  • I don't like this topic - it's too US-focused
    0%

Total Votes: 19

Live Poll

Do you like the idea of Newsvine polls and surveys like?

  • Yes, they are good at sparking discussion
    50%
  • No, it just means the writer is too lazy
    5%
  • Yes, for other reasons which I'll explain below
    5%
  • No, for other reasons I'll explain below
    5%
  • Depends on the question
    35%

Total Votes: 20

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I've been thinking about floating this topic - with poll - for some time.

A little background: I was born in 1968, a bloody year, as Newsweek talks about in a recent issue. With that seed I wrote:

Who'd think that the year I was born would still remain important 40 years later. I've suggested that my work against violence - i'm a pacifist - could have been the result of being born the year of the killings of Kennedy and King and others, not to mention the problems in Vietnam.

I'm sure I was too young to really be aware that the first presdient I was alive under did do so
much damage to the integrity and honesty of our government. Was Watergate the point at which
people lost all trust and respect in the U.S,. government? Or was that already happening over
the unwinnable war in Vietnam?

By the time I got to college we were knee deep in Iran-Contra and, in fact, one of my favorite classes
for my political science minor was comparing and contrasting Watergate vs Iran-Contra.

Those hoping the days of presidents making major lies about promises, be it his pledge not to
raise taxes or not to make deals with terrorists, were by then realizing that it's probably time to just assume
they're lying.

So it was that by the time I graduated from college and started to cover local government, then thinking that one day
I'd cover national politics, I would often hear jokes like this: "How can you tell when a politician is lying?" "How?"
"His lips are moving."
As often as not the jokes would be told local politicians. Make of that what you will.

Clinton made his share or mistakes and lies.

Bush - or his cronies - lied to get us into a war. It wasn't the first time this was done, of course, as Killfile and other historians will note, but it was/is still chilling.

And so here we are now. I was only half-joking when I suggested yesterday in my request for debate questions that for future election debates we force the candidates to wear lie-detector machines. Because I don't know about you but when I watch the debates and listen to speeches I'm assuming maybe 10 percent of what they are saying is what they truly think and believe so what's the point in listening?

  • 22 Votes
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47
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5.4
{"commentId":1269300,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Put simply, I, like many, are disgusted with our government. I don't know what the answer is. The Dems have their share of scandals.

Cue Yuriy to come tell us to vote for Ron Paul but I don't know that that will be the answer either.

Meanwhile the Republicans are going negative against each other, as I talked about here.

As a Democrat perhaps I should be happy that this time around the Republicans are going after each other, bloodying each other up in the process. For the last few elections it was the Dems who did this and the Repubs just rallied around the presumptive choice and by the time the primary election came around the Dems were so bloodied as to be unelectable.

The time the negatives of all of them will be known long before election day. And heck I've been pointing out that Hillary is unelectable for years and yet she's still doing will in the polls. I'm pretty sure that's why Repubs often focus on her and not Obama - it's because they want to run against her.

Sigh.

But it's just frustrating as hell to watch this.

There has to be a better way to do this.

So what do YOU think? What can be done to get we the people to believe again in our federal government? Do we need to just get rid of all of them, give 'em all pink slips and start again? What?

Or should I just give up and move to Canada.

{"commentId":1269300,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 5 votes
Reply#1 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:46 AM EST
{"commentId":1269344,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

Congress could gain credibility by beginning impeachment proceedings for Bush and Cheney, since it is their duty to do so. They also must restore the constitutional protections to our rights and freedoms that this administration has taken from us. Since that probably isn't going to happen, it will be a long time before the public will trust them again.

The executive branch will begin to gain credibility when we have competent people in charge of it, and not until then.

{"commentId":1269344,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}
  • 9 votes
Reply#2 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:57 AM EST
{"commentId":1269535,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Morning. (Or is it nite there, I get so confussed.)

THanks for the thoughtful response.

The executive branch will begin to gain credibility when we have competent people in charge of it, and not until then.

How do you define "competent" and who would you view as the last "competent" president?

{"commentId":1269535,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 4 votes
#2.1 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:51 AM EST
{"commentId":1269900,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}
How do you define "competent"

Someone who can manage all branches and responsibilities of government effectively in order to make things better, not worse, for all Americans and our allies.

who would you view as the last "competent" president?

Clinton.

{"commentId":1269900,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}
  • 6 votes
#2.2 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:37 AM EST
{"commentId":1270469,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Thanks for answering. I'm sure someone will come along and point to flaws of Clinton which is why I asked.

{"commentId":1270469,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
  • 2 votes
#2.3 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:58 PM EST
{"commentId":1270495,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

Doesn't matter if he was flawed.

It was a question of competence. he was competent, Bush is not.

{"commentId":1270495,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}
  • 5 votes
#2.4 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:05 PM EST
{"commentId":1270615,"authorDomain":"brettandrew"}
Congress could gain credibility by beginning impeachment proceedings for Bush and Cheney, since it is their duty to do so.

Impeachment proceedings might make a small minority of Americans on the far left swell with pride, but I doubt they would do anything to revive the all time low numbers surrounding this Congress. That is just my humble opinion.

The executive branch will begin to gain credibility when we have competent people in charge of it, and not until then.

While I do not share your view concerning the current administration I will agree that former President Clinton was competent. President Clinton was a most able and adept politician, despite his questionable personal affairs.

{"commentId":1270615,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"brettandrew"}
  • 3 votes
#2.5 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:37 PM EST
{"commentId":1271051,"authorDomain":"vacelts"}
Congress could gain credibility by beginning impeachment proceedings

Members of Congress on both sides have too much of their own baggage to gain any real credibility any time soon. And to even start, they would need to first focus on what is really good for the American people, not just the people that line their pockets or what makes them look good or what the party line is. Congress needs to get its own house in order before it can go after another branch.

who would you view as the last "competent" president?

The answers to this question will be based on party allegiance. And are you judging a president's competence on his popularity, his ability to get along with Congress or to actually get things done. There are a lot of ways to look at it.

I don't think Bush is incompetent. He's been plagued with conflicts with Congress and some questionable staff and is not necessarily an eloquent public speaker.

President Clinton was a most able and adept politician

I would agree with adept politician, but not with adept president. There's a big difference. Clinton (and his wife) play the game well. He's a smooth talker that knows how to win the public over. However, that does not make his a good president.

{"commentId":1271051,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"vacelts"}
  • 2 votes
#2.6 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:53 PM EST
{"commentId":1271212,"authorDomain":"Zoilus"}

If Democrats had the two-thirds majority necessary to override a presidential veto, (which they don't) it still wouldn't matter because a presidential override requires a two-thirds majority vote from both the House and The Senate. Not all the blame goes to the Democrats. The lowapproval rating of Congress just shows that the republicans have been successful in their spin.

{"commentId":1271212,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"Zoilus"}
  • 2 votes
#2.7 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:48 PM EST
Reply
{"commentId":1269647,"authorDomain":"rhodezone"}
What can be done to get we the people to believe again in our federal government? Do we need to just get rid of all of them, give 'em all pink slips and start again?

The federal government is not part of my belief system. I do believe in progress towards better systems of governance, and at this point in history, America, our inheritance, however you conceive it, is getting in the way of progress.

Or should I just give up and move to Canada

I would imagine that today's Parliament Hill environment would just as much of an anathema to you as Capitol Hill.

{"commentId":1269647,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"rhodezone"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#3 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:29 AM EST
{"commentId":1269963,"authorDomain":"yorkark"}

rhodezone, I would love to know what you consider a better system of governance. Progress is in in the eyes of the beholder. You idea of progress may not be mine, so what do you mean by progress?

We are in trouble because we have to much and we are greedy and want too much more. So if we cannot get it then we will cheat to get it, rob to get it, and lie to get it and all of this is happening with our so called leaders, at ever level.

We have lost our moral center and this statement has nothing to do with religion, we are not teaching our children right from wrong, we are not letting our children learn how to get along with each other. There is much to be said for the old days when you earned your way into a group, sometimes it was a fist fight, but you earned your way. We deny our children this pleasure, so they do not learn to give and take.

{"commentId":1269963,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"yorkark"}
  • 2 votes
Reply#4 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:48 AM EST
{"commentId":1270501,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

Sally, how would YOu answer my question? Because i'm not asking about changing the form of government but what can we do to return our democracy to, well, more of a democrac? As in one that's not a joke.

{"commentId":1270501,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
    #4.1 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:06 PM EST
    {"commentId":1270986,"authorDomain":"rhodezone"}
    I would love to know what you consider a better system of governance. Progress is in in the eyes of the beholder. You idea of progress may not be mine, so what do you mean by progress?

    You're right: political progress is subjective. Progress implies a vector, an explicit direction. Politicians lend so much effort to the ideological tug-of-war just to set the (political dis-)course, it makes me wonder if they have the capacity to think objectives (or externalities) through, which is how 'progress' in other realms (science, technology, engineering, health) is measured.

    I don't have an alternative or supplementary system of governance in mind, but I think we're overdue for a thorough re-examination of how our social contract is implemented.

    {"commentId":1270986,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"rhodezone"}
      #4.2 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:28 PM EST
      Reply
      {"commentId":1269971,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

      Meanwhile Mitt Romney took us one step in the wrong direction today, buying up some of the same media organizations previously covering him.

      {"commentId":1269971,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
      • 3 votes
      Reply#5 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:50 AM EST
      {"commentId":1270039,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

      Yes, it's possible but it would be very very difficult. For starters, we'd have to make a serious break with the policies which have distanced us from the rest of the world these last few years. The United States needs to be a leader again rather than a very large and very well armed rogue state.

      And that means admitting our mistakes.

      We need to join the World Criminal Court per the terms offered the Clinton Administration. If that means that some members of the US armed forces who engaged in questionable conduct in Iraq go before the Hauge... well... so be it.

      We need to reexamine our role in Kyoto and the issue of climate change and take a leadership role in that issue.

      Then we need to start setting an example for the world. We need to get the Doha round of the WTO back on track and realize that agriculture subsidies, while politically popular, are holding us and the world back.

      And that's just abroad. We need transparency and openness here at home, a reform of our campaign finance system, and a dozen other things besides. All of that will come with time though. For now, we need to realize and acknowledge that things need to change.

      {"commentId":1270039,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"killfile"}
      • 5 votes
      Reply#6 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:09 PM EST
      {"commentId":1270169,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

      Hi Killfile. Thanks for the thoughtful answer.

      And that means admitting our mistakes.

      Fat chance of that happening.

      We need to join the World Criminal Court per the terms offered the Clinton Administration. If that means that some members of the US armed forces who engaged in questionable conduct in Iraq go before the Hauge... well... so be it.

      We definitely need to do this. It makes the Americans entire position on war crimes questionable when it's afraid to join this partially because of feared persection and prosection not only over Iraq but over the actions of past administrators and secretaries of state. Speaking of which if you've never read the been or seen the documentary the Trials of Henry Kissinger I strongly suggest you do. If that book is true Kissinger would be brought up as a war criminal.

      {"commentId":1270169,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
      • 3 votes
      #6.1 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:44 PM EST
      {"commentId":1270476,"authorDomain":"snowfallen"}

      @Killfile: Agreed. But the the "criminal court" and the word "leadership" come into tension in my view.

      If the U.S. joins (and we should) the international criminal court, the American public will need to graciously endure and humbly respond to what could be a long list of allegations and trials. Probably most, if not all, of which would be legitimate, justified and sorely needed.

      The thing is, the end result will not be the U.S. as world leader and role model. It will be a country held accountable and a blow to the national ego.

      I think a hard lesson of humility has been a long time coming, and in the long run will be good for all involved, but it certainly will not come easy and will definitely raise nationalist/fascist movements in response.

      It would require a national soul searching and reckoning with reality and the history that we often ignore. Its lasting repercussions would be on par with the Civil Rights, a long ongoing process of reconciliation.

      That would be leadership, leadership through humility, but it is not the kind of leadership people often think of and I am not sure it is the leadership you intended in your comment. Please clarify.

      {"commentId":1270476,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"snowfallen"}
      • 1 vote
      #6.2 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:00 PM EST
      {"commentId":1271049,"authorDomain":"killfile"}
      The thing is, the end result will not be the U.S. as world leader and role model. It will be a country held accountable and a blow to the national ego.

      It would be a blow to see Americans hauled before the Hague but if we're going to be a country that fights for things like the rule of law then we have to bow to that, no matter how it hurts our pride.

      The United States could really make a difference in the world if we were really seen as trusted and the "good guys." Part of creating that image is being willing to pay for our mistakes and continuing to fight for what's right.

      How much better might we combat terrorism if we spent our time, money, and energy ensuring that American military intervention was beyond reproach while simultaniously working to do things like ensure that everyone has access to clean drinking water?

      How might we lead the world if the American Army Uniform were a symbol of justice and freedom - welcomed with open arms into places like Darfur?

      America has to be willing to fight the hard fights while at the same time admitting that we are human and fallible and in need of oversight and supervision like everyone else.

      What would it mean to the world if Americans no longer thought of themselves as above the law? What would it mean to Americans?

      {"commentId":1271049,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"killfile"}
      • 5 votes
      #6.3 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:53 PM EST
      {"commentId":1271069,"authorDomain":"paperdragon"}

      *applause*

      {"commentId":1271069,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"paperdragon"}
      • 2 votes
      #6.4 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:59 PM EST
      Reply
      {"commentId":1270043,"authorDomain":"damiankd"}

      I'm gonna echo Dennis McCann's sentiments above, and add some of my own.

      1.) Impeach Bush & Cheney.
      2.) Investigate criminal charges against Rumsfeld, Rove & Gonzales (and others).
      3.) Strip away the secrecy in Congress. Report openly and honestly about everything. Technology is cheap and easy these days. You could do most of the reporting automatically, and through RSS feeds. This would include reporting on lobbying, holds on bills, earmarks, travel expenses, etc and etc.
      4.) Force resignations for all lawmakers accused of wrongdoing (providing there's proof). No more of this craziness that Craig pulled -- staying in office after being arrested for something.
      5.) I'm sure there's a great number 5 out there, but I can't think of it right now.

      {"commentId":1270043,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"damiankd"}
      • 3 votes
      Reply#7 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:12 PM EST
      {"commentId":1270187,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

      5) Pass serious campaign finance reform.

      {"commentId":1270187,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
      • 4 votes
      #7.1 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:46 PM EST
      {"commentId":1270455,"authorDomain":"damiankd"}

      6.) Serious election reform; zero tolerance for election fraud. If our country keeps going the way we have in the past couple presidential elections, we'll be right there with Pakistan and Russia in no time.
      7.) End the practice of presidential signing statements.

      {"commentId":1270455,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"damiankd"}
      • 3 votes
      #7.2 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:53 PM EST
      {"commentId":1298515,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

      8) Require candidates to take lie detector tests during election debates

      {"commentId":1298515,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
        #7.3 - Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:17 AM EST
        Reply
        {"commentId":1270220,"authorDomain":"Zoilus"}

        "Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." --Thomas Jefferson to William H. Crawford, 1816.

        "Society [has] a right to erase from the roll of its members any one who rendered his own existence inconsistent with theirs; to withdraw from him the protection of their laws, and to remove him from among them by exile, or even by death if necessary."--Thomas Jefferson to L. H. Girardin, 1815

        The response-ability is Ultimately in the hands of the people. Do we sit on our fat couches and just hope for things to change? Or do we go out and make those responsible, accountable. When the people begin to fear their own government, it is the government that should begin to fear it's people. The world will respect us again only if we do this. The American example introduced the principle of national self-government to the world and proved that it was not only possible, but the best form of government for its citizens, and also it promised peace and happiness to those people in other lands who might choose to imitate it. What example have we shown to the world lately?

        {"commentId":1270220,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"Zoilus"}
        • 4 votes
        Reply#8 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:55 PM EST
        {"commentId":1270239,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

        Was it also Jefferson who advocated a revolution every 17 or 27 years? We're way past due.

        {"commentId":1270239,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
        • 4 votes
        #8.1 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:01 PM EST
        {"commentId":1270278,"authorDomain":"Zoilus"}

        Yes.

        "The tumults in America I expected would have produced in Europe an unfavorable opinion of our political state. But it has not. On the contrary, the small effect of these tumults seems to have given more confidence in the firmness of our governments. The interposition of the people themselves on the side of government has had a great effect on the opinion here [in Europe]." --Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1787.

        "Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends [i.e., securing inherent and inalienable rights, with powers derived from the consent of the governed], it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence, 1776.

        "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere." --Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1787.

        "God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion... We have had thirteen States independent for eleven years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half, for each State. What country before ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion?" --Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith, 1787.

        "If our country, when pressed with wrongs at the point of the bayonet, had been governed by its heads instead of its hearts, where should we have been now? Hanging on a gallows as high as Haman's." --Thomas Jefferson to Maria Cosway, 1786.

        {"commentId":1270278,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"Zoilus"}
        • 4 votes
        #8.2 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:12 PM EST
        Reply
        {"commentId":1270331,"authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}

        Congress needs to take an honest look at the FDA and clean up the deadly foods and drugs that are killing us as we go day to day right here at home. I did an article with a Confidential FDA report on the crisis that says in very clear terms, we are in peril and the agency is not able to protect American lives.

        If we can't have safe consumer products in areas as basic as foods, what the heck do we need to worry about other policies for. We're dying right here from corrupt legislation and influence.

        We need an immediate moratorium on all the gmo foods and if you're one of the folks who thinks this is just more of my ranting over something that can't possibly be that bad read the FDA report. Download the pdf while the link is still viable and see for yourself how dire the current crisis really is.

        Great point Scott, Was it also Jefferson who advocated a revolution every 17 or 27 years? We're way past due.

        {"commentId":1270331,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"PamelaDrew"}
        • 4 votes
        Reply#9 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:25 PM EST
        {"commentId":1270441,"authorDomain":"eco-geek"}

        Great question, Scott.

        I think it's definitely possible for the government to regain its credibility/integrity, but I don't know if we have it in us for that to happen, at least with the current political climate.

        The first step is that there needs to be a convincing change in Washington, and not just a change of parties, but a real change in how things are done. While this could come in the form of a reform movement from within an existing party, they currently have too much to gain from the status quo for a reform movement to have any legs. Realistically, I think a 3rd party will have to come in and wrest power from the Republicans and Democrats for there to be any meaningful change in how business is handles in Washington, but things are going to have to get a lot worse before I see that as a viable possibility.

        This isn't going to change with the election of a President. While he (or she) controls one branch of the government, any changes are going to have to go through Congress. As such, once a receptive congress is in-place, I think they need to pass provisions outlawing gerrymandering, and pass a line-item veto (or some other measure that will allow for elimination of unnecessary pork-barrel spending), offer some real campaign finance reform that minimizes the need for campaign donations while keeping freedom of speech intact, among other things. Furthermore, such a congress would need to focus on improving the lives of all, and not just become a slave to the powers that elected them. I see such a movement likely coming out of the political center, as the Republicans and Democrats are becoming increasingly beholden to their fringe elements, alienating large portions of their own party, in addition to the other party in its entirety.

        Really, Washington needs a good cleaning-out, but things are so stacked against newcomers that people are going to have to be really upset with both parties for that to happen. Credibility and integrity can be regained, so long as the people can have faith in the people in the halls of power. That's all it takes. Unfortunately, that kind of credibility is hard to come by, and is often a hindrance to seeking such a high office.

        But that's what needs to happen, at least in my mind.

        {"commentId":1270441,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"eco-geek"}
        • 4 votes
        Reply#10 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:50 PM EST
        {"commentId":1272614,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

        Thanks for the compliments from Pamela and Eco-Geek

        I'll respond more fully to some of these excellent comments right after I go back to sleep.. well, technically after I wake up again.

        {"commentId":1272614,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
          #10.1 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:46 AM EST
          Reply
          {"commentId":1270480,"authorDomain":"killfile"}

          Oh -- and my opinion on Newsvine polls:

          I think they're dumb. This isn't a poll in the traditional sense, this seems to be a discussion of "what do you think needs to be fixed" but long story short I think that if the thrust of your article is about the discussion - that is, if you're expecting your readers to do the heavy lifting for you in the comments - or if you're really just throwing out questions then the article needs to be tagged Newsvine.

          Just my $0.02

          {"commentId":1270480,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"killfile"}
          • 4 votes
          Reply#11 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:00 PM EST
          {"commentId":1270518,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

          So if I'd just asked the question but not included context, background and such,
          this would have been much weaker?
          Well, I agree with that.

          {"commentId":1270518,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
          • 1 vote
          #11.1 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:09 PM EST
          Reply
          {"commentId":1270508,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

          Interesting factoid I read in the New Yorker recently: at least 30 percent of Americans have never seen a White House that did not include either a Bush family member or a Clinton family member. (Yes, that includes George as VP)
          But are family dynasties what is needed?

          Related question:
          Are term limits of congress helping or hurting?

          {"commentId":1270508,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
          • 1 vote
          Reply#12 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:08 PM EST
          {"commentId":1270702,"authorDomain":"MinnieApolis"}

          I keep seeding stuff from Clean Elections about freeing the political system from the taint of big money, money that is needed to finance running for office but which corrupts the system.

          Please link here -- at www.publiccampaign.org.
          Some states have adopted the Clean Elections law and other have it under consideration.

          From the Public Campaign newsletter --

          Earlier this week, USA Today ran a great editorial on the top five reasons to support full public financing of campaigns on the model of Clean Elections systems in Arizona, Maine, and Connecticut. They also ran a "counterpoint" article authored by Bradley Smith of the Center for Competitive Politics – an article filled with half-truths and distortions about public financing of elections.

          As for the polls, some are badly worded, some are really dumb, but they do tend to increase comment and a sense of participation in the agora of ideas.

          {"commentId":1270702,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"MinnieApolis"}
          • 5 votes
          Reply#13 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:02 PM EST
          {"commentId":1271031,"authorDomain":"firsty"}

          war crimes tried in front of an international court, from top to bottom. that would be a good start.

          {"commentId":1271031,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"firsty"}
          • 6 votes
          Reply#14 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:45 PM EST
          {"commentId":1271264,"authorDomain":"Andimia"}

          How about eliminating the two party dominant system so that we can get some decent candidates for president on the ballot?

          Giving the people their rights back would be a great start.

          Stop surveillance on U.S. citizens. We are not the enemy.

          Stop using terrorism as an excuse for all actions and to scare the American people. Most of us are intelligent and we don't buy the crap anymore.

          {"commentId":1271264,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"Andimia"}
          • 3 votes
          Reply#15 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:05 PM EST
          {"commentId":1271397,"authorDomain":"Zoilus"}
          How about eliminating the two party dominant system so that we can get some decent candidates for president on the ballot?

          There will always be parties, there is nothing in the constitution to regulate or prohibit party affiliations. And no way to prohibit them in a free society. The guarantee of free associations. People will form groups of like minded people and petition for their interest. It is when those with inordinate amounts of wealth use it as power and buy the influence from the rest of us, stealing our representation in government. The definition of corruption.

          Giving the people their rights back would be a great start.

          We have rights, the problem is we don't exercise them as we should.

          Stop surveillance on U.S. citizens. We are not the enemy.

          There's a good one, The government is only here on the behave of the people who the serve, and don't need to know what we are doing. It's is the people who need to be aware of what our government is doing and making sure that they work for our best interest, not theirs..

          Stop using terrorism as an excuse for all actions and to scare the American people. Most of us are intelligent and we don't buy the crap anymore.

          Some of us never did buy into it, more and more are coming around.

          {"commentId":1271397,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"Zoilus"}
          • 2 votes
          #15.1 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:08 PM EST
          Reply
          {"commentId":1271484,"authorDomain":"chasing"}

          The good old days are always the good old days - and it isn't as though, pre-Vietnam, there wasn't the Mexican-American war, or the Spanish-American war. It wasn't as though there weren't Teapot Dome scandals. Or, you know, that little thing called the Civil War. The KKK. The Great Depression. It's sort of silly to ask what it would take for people to trust government - the Constitution is sort of based on the notion that, well, honestly, you shouldn't, after all.

          America's salad days are no doubt behind it, and we most certainly are entering a multi-polar world. It luckily ascended in somewhat prime conditions (no angry superpower next door, foreign nations more concerned with each other than the US, etc), and had the good fortune of being able to create its own myths (not King Arthur, but poor-man-turned-rich), etc. And then it had the further fortune (not necessarily "good") of coming out of the WWII era largely unscathed (San Diego wasn't firebombed, and New York wasn't nuked, nor was there a seige of Dallas).

          Those times were never going to last. In some ways, the US is a victim of its own myth-making. And in a lot of ways that's unfair. It'll take time to adjust - just look at the UK, post-empire, but it will happen. Changes are coming, sure enough, but as for credibility? You can't really lose what you never really had.

          {"commentId":1271484,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"chasing"}
          • 4 votes
          Reply#16 - Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:03 PM EST
          {"commentId":1272530,"authorDomain":"vacelts"}

          Chasing, some very good points.

          {"commentId":1272530,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"vacelts"}
          • 2 votes
          #16.1 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:18 AM EST
          Reply
          {"commentId":1272627,"authorDomain":"yorkark"}

          Sorry Scott, my contribution to a solution. Public finacing of elections, giving every candidate and equal amount of air time, so much free TV time and enforcing a disclosure policy that prevents this junk that dribbles and drops out. Rudy's business good example. There should be full disclosure if the candidate is having any business with the government.

          Most of all we need more citizen involvment and that is a major key and I think if we can make it interesting they will come out and partlicipate.

          {"commentId":1272627,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"yorkark"}
          • 1 vote
          Reply#17 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:49 AM EST
          {"commentId":1272742,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

          Sally - good morning. Hey, I think I agreed with everything there. Good list.

          {"commentId":1272742,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
          • 1 vote
          #17.1 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:27 AM EST
          Reply
          {"commentId":1273854,"authorDomain":"headinthegame"}

          I think if we followed Ron Paul's advice it might win back credibility.

          {"commentId":1273854,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"headinthegame"}
          • 1 vote
          Reply#18 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:27 PM EST
          {"commentId":1273880,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

          Depends on which of his many proposals we're talking about. Many of his aren't actually realistic as in he wouldn't have the authority to do something like change how the federal reserve works, or at least that's my understanding of it.

          {"commentId":1273880,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
            #18.1 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:36 PM EST
            {"commentId":1273892,"authorDomain":"headinthegame"}

            Bring the troops home; stop meddling in the affairs of foreign nations; stop nation building; respect individual liberty; close secret prisons; reinstate the constitution, etc. The list goes on....he would restore credibility.

            {"commentId":1273892,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"headinthegame"}
            • 3 votes
            #18.2 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:38 PM EST
            {"commentId":1273944,"authorDomain":"Zoilus"}

            headinthegame,

            But if we have companies and corporations in other countries, subjugating its populations for their own profit, that means we have an "American Interest" and that gives us a God given right to interfere! And if they don't like it, then we have to send in the troops bomb and kill the indigenous peoples, and have the CIA undermine their Democracy and put in a puppet Government! Here is a video link The AMERICAN War On Democracy I have to warn you it's over an Hour and a half long.

            {"commentId":1273944,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"Zoilus"}
            • 3 votes
            #18.3 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:00 PM EST
            {"commentId":1274046,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}
            Bring the troops home; stop meddling in the affairs of foreign nations; stop nation building; respect individual liberty; close secret prisons; reinstate the constitution, etc. The list goes on....he would restore credibility.

            Great list. And that brings up another question I've oft wondered: Will we ever gain back the liberties we've lost under this administration?

            Dan, I sure hope you're being sarcastic. If not let me know and I'll respond but I think you're kidding.

            {"commentId":1274046,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
            • 3 votes
            #18.4 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:41 PM EST
            {"commentId":1274096,"authorDomain":"headinthegame"}

            i think we can and will regain those liberties

            {"commentId":1274096,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"headinthegame"}
            • 1 vote
            #18.5 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:03 PM EST
            {"commentId":1274394,"authorDomain":"Zoilus"}

            Scott, of course I'm being sarcastic, you know me, playing devils advocate. I have heard this said to me, in so many words, by others who where dead serious though. The link i gave is a good show to watch BTW.

            {"commentId":1274394,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"Zoilus"}
            • 2 votes
            #18.6 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:42 PM EST
            {"commentId":1274602,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}
            Scott, of course I'm being sarcastic, you know me, playing devils advocate. I have heard this said to me, in

            Good to hear

            {"commentId":1274602,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
              #18.7 - Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:16 AM EST
              Reply
              {"commentId":1274203,"authorDomain":"joysteele"}

              Yes we can get our country back, because "We The People" are the government. We just need to learn how to govern.

              {"commentId":1274203,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"joysteele"}
              • 1 vote
              Reply#19 - Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:05 PM EST
              {"commentId":1277141,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}

              Congress has to stop all the hidden pork in every bill. The 'riders' added to buy votes from other members of Congress. Bills should stick to the major subject that it is about.

              Congress has to stop passing bills for things they never intend to provide funds for in the budget.

              Congress had to actually read the bills they submit instead of allowing 'staff' to write it then tell the staff of other Congresspersons what is in the bill. The members should certify that they, themselves, have read a bill instead of voting on the recommendation of the staff of another Congressperson.

              {"commentId":1277141,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
              • 2 votes
              Reply#20 - Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:39 PM EST
              {"commentId":1277804,"authorDomain":"yorkark"}

              Dr. Know:

              Very good points I agree that the Congress has a lot of reforming to do, but it is the Executive branch that has violated our Constitution. If we had true leadership at all level of our government we could take our country back. This lack of leadership starts in our Townships, cities, States, Counties, and up the ladder. This includes our court at all levels. As I stated before this country has lost its moral center and greed has taken over. We need to reverse this and we can this is the Country of We the People. REGISTER AND VOTE If the maximum number of qualified electors would register then go out and vote, the sheer numbers of participation with scare the hell out of every politician. Right now they know that the majority of the people don't care.

              {"commentId":1277804,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"yorkark"}
              • 2 votes
              Reply#21 - Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:05 AM EST
              {"commentId":1288279,"authorDomain":"joysteele"}

              A President that can lead us in the right direction, that would let us rule, would be God sent.

              {"commentId":1288279,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"joysteele"}
              • 2 votes
              Reply#22 - Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:05 AM EST
              {"commentId":1306260,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

              Thanks for all the great responses so far.

              {"commentId":1306260,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
                Reply#23 - Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:38 PM EST
                {"commentId":1311621,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

                Thanks for all the great responses.

                I've posted a sequel of sorts to this question

                {"commentId":1311621,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
                  Reply#24 - Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:40 PM EST
                  {"commentId":1321278,"authorDomain":"sbutki"}

                  Sadly it sounds like a return to credibility isn't going to be happening anytime soon.

                  {"commentId":1321278,"threadId":"189198","contentId":"1163407","authorDomain":"sbutki"}
                    Reply#25 - Wed Jan 2, 2008 12:57 PM EST
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