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SCOTT (SCOOP) BUTKI

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A cynical idealist; To Read Me Is to Know Me (Mostly)
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Five Things I Can Tell You, From Past Experience, Not To Say to Civil War Reenactors

Sat Jul 7, 2007 1:07 AM EDT
history, civil-war, sbutki-memoir
By Scott (Scoop) Butki
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This I seeded two items about reenactments and noted I had many stories and it was suggested that I share them. So here we go. Each of these are true stories.

1) Do not ask them, as I tended to do, about the contradictions between their transportation to the event (cars and trucks, including the one I photographed above) and their belief that they were being completely authentic. Much more fun to instead ask for their cell phone number so you can call them later if you need to clarify anything. Not only did many give me their cell number before realizing I was going to mention that in the story but more than one gave me their business card.

One of my favorite reenactment stories that I wrote was about a hospital guard who went around the country, by plane of course, appearing as Ulysses S. Grant. Not only did he have a business card but he also had an email address and Web site. I found my lede for the story in noting that Ulysses Grant is a guard at the local hospital but struggling to get his Web site working, which is about what one would expect if Grant were alive today.

2) Do not call them actors. They prefer the term reenactors It's a bit like the Elvis impersonators, many of whom I've also interviewed, who refuse to answer to that label declaring they are "tribute artists." It may be semantics to you and me but not to them. If you want to read a great book about re-enacotrs read Confederates Of the Attic by Tony Horwitz.

3) Do not ask this question I asked in July 1999 of those playing the confederates: "How do they feel about the objections people have towards them waving and using the confederate flag?" I think I also pointed out that some would see their actions as implying some form of racism.

One guy started to talk, saying those who suggest the Civil War was about slavery are idiots, ignorant, full of baloney, etc. He was getting a bit riled up. I asked politely for his short answer, reminding him I had limited space, and his colleagues began to surround me.

I noticed then, for the first time, that they were indeed holding muskets. "Those things aren't loaded, are they?" I asked innocently, writing down notes. "Usually not, but one guy got shot with a bullet in Gettsyburg last year² one replied. I quickly ended the interview.

4) Avoid asking them if in order to be truly authentic they each have their own set of slaves.

5) Lastly I'd advise not asking whether the camaraderie they get as reneactors is similar to that members of gangs have. I asked once and the reenactor took it completely the wrong way.

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Scott (Scoop) Butki

I'll add more photos later

  • 5 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Jul 7, 2007 1:49 AM EDT
Scott (Scoop) Butki

Ok, added some more photos.

I'm going to write one more memoir piece than I'm going back to bed. I woke up
a few minutes ago when the power went out here and when it turned back
on the tv turned on and I sort of freaked out.

  • 4 votes
Reply#2 - Sat Jul 7, 2007 9:14 AM EDT
Scott (Scoop) Butki

I was hoping for more response to this one.

Maybe I didnt clip it to the right places.

  • 4 votes
Reply#3 - Sat Jul 7, 2007 11:29 PM EDT
Tacitus13

Ahh, Scott, I have some comments to make. Never been to a re-enactment as none are close to me and my vacation time is spent in other locales, but I'd love to see some.

1. The reenactors are reenacting the past, not living in it.

2. I'll have to look for the book. I will side with the reenactors for the present though.

3. The Civil War did not start out being about slavery but it did end that way. You see the flag how you perceive it and I see it my way but just having a Confederate flag doesn't make me a racist. I'm assuming most reenactors have the appropriate battle flags for their regiments.

4. Very few Southerners actually owned slaves, I want to say the percentage was about 5% off the top of my head.

5. Many groups have a sense of comraderie but gangs have a negative connotation since they are usually involved in criminal activity so I'd say your question was inappropriate.

  • 5 votes
#3.1 - Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:46 AM EST
Scott (Scoop) Butki

I'd agree with most of your points. Can't speak in more detail as a4 year old niece is currently doing my hair.

  • 3 votes
#3.2 - Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:02 AM EST
Griff69

I want to see pictures of that

  • 2 votes
#3.3 - Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:04 AM EST
Scott (Scoop) Butki

Yesterday she put clips in my hair. I asked if my hair was too long and she calmly explained that even if my hair was long I was still a boy.

I'm still laughing over last nite when I received cashews as an xmas present and she announced, "You have nuts!" I kept a straight face until she said "you ARE nuts" to which I confessed and informed her there are many who would agree with that opinion.

Oh and I've not even shared yet about the trip at the park to the north pole.

I post my favorite anecdotes over at this piece by Vacelts

  • 1 vote
#3.4 - Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:12 AM EST
Robert Blevins - AB of Seattle

NEVER ask them why in the reenactments...the South always seems to win. :)

  • 2 votes
#3.5 - Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:39 AM EDT
Scott (Scoop) Butki

yes good point

  • 1 vote
#3.6 - Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:44 PM EDT
rochart

Just a thought, you might want to avoid saying "oh, you've got nice (musket) balls" depending upon your intentions of course. ;^)

  • 2 votes
#3.7 - Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:56 PM EDT
Scott (Scoop) Butki

or noting the phallic nature of most weapons?

  • 1 vote
#3.8 - Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:26 PM EDT
Knowlton's Rangers

I have read the book, and some do not just act or reenact They do live it. If I remember it has been a while since I read the book, it is noted that some reenactors go on diets so that they look malnourished to fit the part of being on marches and battle for long periods of time.

Do not get me wrong I think that living history reenactments can be used as a teaching experience as well as entertainment but it has to follow history and not a directors opinion.

  • 1 vote
#3.9 - Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:12 AM EDT
Reply
Life Tourist

As a former reenactor myself (1830's era New Jersey, not Civil War) I understand where you're coming from. Those people are a scary, but no more harmful than your other assorted impersonators, LARPERS (live action role players), Dr. Who diehards, and convention geeks with whom I share a special bond. Of course none of these other fellows are generally armed, so I may have to agree that the renactors are a bit more disconcerting when you get them riled. I think in the end it's the sheer bureaucracy of the Civil War folks that get me. They will shun you if you're not wearing the right fabrics or affecting the right accent... and generally the rule is "no girls allowed". I've seen militia demos where four year old boys were allowed to play with toy guns, but when a girl wanted to march with them they told her it would be historically inaccurate. When I politely pointed out that four year olds in militias wasn't accurate either, the reenactor in question mumbled something crankily about womanists and went back to his business.

Ultimately however the ones that truly frighten the bejesus out of me are WWII reenactors, particularly those who... shall we say... don't play Americans. My friend's dad played a German for years in the reenactor circles until his wife threatened to leave him. Then he started playing an American...who was captured by the Germans... and brainwashed into being a Nazi. *cough*

Although the very best was when my friend was chased out of a 1500's LARP circle because he was wearing a Shakespere tie instead of a full out costume. He cursed them off in Shakesperian English and felt much better when he realized they didn't even know a single play. lol

  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Sun Jul 8, 2007 12:43 PM EDT
Scott (Scoop) Butki

Although the very best was when my friend was chased out of a 1500's LARP circle because he was wearing a Shakespere tie instead of a full out costume. He cursed them off in Shakesperian English and felt much better when he realized they didn't even know a single play. lol

That's hilarious!

A "womanist"? That's crazy.

Did they ever have anyone black offering to play a role? I bet that'd get tricky right quick.

We did have one controversy I forgot to mention. It's one thing to have Civil War reenactors which meant they had the confederate flag.
But when a WW II reenactment group wanted to do their own thing and include a nazi flag that caused a bit of a stir as you might imagine.

I believe that after I wrote about it all the event was either cancelled or done more discretely.

  • 3 votes
#4.1 - Sun Jul 8, 2007 12:53 PM EDT
stevetherobot

Should have pointed out the numerous women who served dressed as men.

  • 4 votes
#4.2 - Mon Jul 9, 2007 9:25 AM EDT
Scott (Scoop) Butki

You're right - I missed that. Still don't think they had cell phones though.

    #4.3 - Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:13 PM EST
    Reply
    Garcia-Glass

    Enjoyed the article and Life Tourist had some interesting and funny things to add. The photos help even though you do intermingle posers to the throne w/ the Civil War dudes. Also, your list of things not to ask implies that you found them menacing. Aren't they just grown men playing war games? Okay, I'm with you on the scary.

    One way to look at the Civil War guys is that they are just history buffs who have taken their hobby to an extreme. I think the confederate flag waving is insensitive though as, despite the complexity of the North/South issues, it has come to symbolize an attempt to uphold slavery. It blew my mind this past Juneteenth to learn that there were slaves in Galveston, TX who learned about emancipation three years after it was declared! It's hard to believe the slave owners didn't know sooner.

    Anyway, I don't like exclusionary groups but try to reconcile it with my belief in live and let live. We do have the right to peaceably assemble and it's interesting to see what form that takes in various subcultures. I'm not sure that right was intended to be combined w/ the right to bear arms though.

    My exposure to re-enactment groups is w/ the SCA, The Society for Creative Anachronism. As you probably know, they recreate medieval culture minus the nasty stuff like plagues and pestilence. I used to work with a fair number of members (you guess the industry ; ) and it was all pretty interesting. Some were into the equestrian aspects while others into costume making, homebrewing, etc. Of course, they favored swords over bayonets. Women, I mean wenches and maidens, are members too so they aren't an exclusionary boys club. The SCA also has a complex social structure that tries to mimic those from medieval times.

    Personally, I find England's continuance in knighting folks amusing. I guess it is a great honor but who gets to decide these things? Of course, when you leave things up to the popular vote (minus an electoral college and spineless SC), you might end up w/ the new modern list of 7 Natural Wonders, or worse, someone without puppet strings.

    • 4 votes
    #5 - Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:20 PM EDT
    Scott (Scoop) Butki

    Great comments. I'll come back later to respond to them.

    Oh remind me to tell you the story about the time I went with my older brother to an SCA event at Camp Pendelton.

    Right now i'm late for a date...

    • 2 votes
    #5.1 - Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:58 PM EDT
    Scott (Scoop) Butki

    Oh so my SCA story. My brother was in SCA. He'd wear the chain mail and swing the sword and use me to practice hitting someone, something, etc.

    One day we went to Camp Pendleton, a marine base. A few hundred SCA members were there.
    The highlight for me came when a bunch of Marines, at least 100, were running down a hill nearby. The SCA members, with all their garb (oh, yeah, don't refer to what the reenactors wear as garb or costumes) saw them and shouted, "Charge!"

    Suddenly 100 men in full gear, swords, bows and arrows, etc. went chasing toward the Marines.

    One marine yelled, "Retreat!" and they did so.

    I loved it.

    Each time I hear about another war casualty who was based at Camp Pendleton I remember that moment.

    • 4 votes
    #5.2 - Mon Jul 9, 2007 5:23 PM EDT
    AdipicAcid

    My funny military story has to do with the armor school at Fort Knox. When I was in Boy Scouts, we went to Philmont in New Mexico, driving across the country in buses and staying at churches, YMCAs, and military bases along the way. On the trip back we stopped at Fort Knox and saw some of the tank crews out training. GPS was in its infancy at the time, as was the Abrams, which was just coming into service. There weren't enough to train on, so the driver/commander teams would be out practicing their navigation skills with the new system, in specially fitted out golf carts. I still refer to the Abrams as the world's most expensive golf cart from that experience.

    On a side note, the high scores on the Battlezone machines in the Ft. Knox arcade were insane.

    • 4 votes
    #5.3 - Mon Jul 9, 2007 7:15 PM EDT
    Scott (Scoop) Butki

    I still refer to the Abrams as the world's most expensive golf cart from that experience.

    That is hilarious!

    • 1 vote
    #5.4 - Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:44 AM EDT
    Vincent Bartning

    I've heard they do American Civil War re-enactments in Europe. They use guns too, but I guess they have to leave them at the police station overnight in the UK. BTW, I heard the guy who (accidentally) shot the other re-enactor at Gettysburg was French.

    • 3 votes
    #5.5 - Tue Jul 8, 2008 12:25 PM EDT
    Scott (Scoop) Butki

    accidentally) shot the other re-enactor at Gettysburg was French.

    maybe he was mad about french fries being renamed independence fries?

    • 2 votes
    #5.6 - Tue Jul 8, 2008 12:36 PM EDT
    Vincent Bartning

    It happened in the late mid-to-late nineties I believe. The guy was visiting and borrowed a friend's gun at least. Unfortunately the friend had been in competition earlier in the day -- target shooting. I heard authorities shipped the Frenchman -- dressed as a Confederate BTW -- rather quickly back home; I imagine it was to avoid an international incident.

    Lucky for the other guy, he survived but got shot in the neck. They noticed when he didn't get up after the re-enactment. They tell me you're not supposed to actually point the guy at the others -- to aim high. I wonder if they did it like that back then of if it changed because of this incident. There have been others though, one recent one where a canon went off while the poor guy was loading it. Since you've been to a re-enactment, I'm sure you know how loud those big guns are, so imagine being in front of it when it goes off! The guy lost an arm.

    • 4 votes
    #5.7 - Wed Jul 9, 2008 2:45 PM EDT
    Scott (Scoop) Butki

    Thanks for the info.

    I think there was also a reneactment in Pa or Md where a guy had a heart attack during the reenactment.

    • 3 votes
    #5.8 - Wed Jul 9, 2008 4:22 PM EDT
    Vincent Bartning

    Thanks, Scott!

    P.S. I hope you realized I had a mistake in the third sentence of the second paragraph. It should read, "... actually point the gun at others..." LOL!

    • 3 votes
    #5.9 - Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:49 AM EDT
    Scott (Scoop) Butki

    P.S. I hope you realized I had a mistake in the third sentence of the second paragraph. It should read, "... actually point the gun at others..." LOL!

    Oh, no, and after all my weight training so I can lift a guy and point him at others - you know what they say, it's not guns that kill people it's French reenactors

    • 4 votes
    #5.10 - Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:55 PM EDT
    Sandie Seward

    The sort of people that receive "Knighthoods" now from the Queen, are vastly different to those original "Knights in Armour" of old.

    These days it's Business Tycoons, Actors, Musicians, the sort of men that wouldn't know a helm from a codpiece!

    • 4 votes
    #5.11 - Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:48 AM EST
    Scott (Scoop) Butki

    for the record i couldn't tell you a helm from a codpiece except that i think cod is a fish and helm is a nautical term isn't it?

    scott
    (not expecting to be knighted anytime soon)

    • 3 votes
    #5.12 - Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:16 PM EST
    Griff69

    Every man should own a codpiece... They're great conversation starters.

    • 3 votes
    #5.13 - Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:59 AM EST
    Rainkiss

    Heh. I've been playing with the SCA for decades, some truly wonderful people... and most (not all, may all that's holy help you if you wander into some of the exceptions) are MUCH more laid back than some of the CivWar guys seem to be.

    My SCA/Military story... (Note, this story is about seventh-hand, somewhat shopworn, and probably has a ton of details screwy, if anybody has a fresher, more detailed version, I'd love it!)

    One of the aircraft carriers has, I'm told, a floating barony aboard. They pretty much do everything a local SCA group might do, mostly (it being, of course, military guys) the armored combat.

    One fine afternoon, enough years ago for this to be a somewhat distressing event, it was discovered that a Russian sub was submerged off the port side, 'scope up, observing the ship.

    The brave soul at the loudspeaker called for the Barony to drop everything and report to the flight deck, immediately, for fight practice. Hats and bats, NOW.

    They proceeded to fall to a spirited fight practice, bashing each other with rattan with great abandon, and a good time was had by all.

    At some point, the sub slipped off, and this story was the subject of a few wry chuckles...

    Until somebody got their hands, several years later, on a Russian training manual. I'm told nobody had yet translated the text,around the picture they found of the fight practice, but if they have, I'd LOVE to know what they had to say...

    • 2 votes
    #5.14 - Fri Sep 4, 2009 3:10 PM EDT
    Scott (Scoop) Butki

    very cool story

      #5.15 - Fri Sep 4, 2009 4:16 PM EDT
      Rainkiss

      I like it. :D Like I said, it's been passed down, so I've got no idea how true it is... but it SHOULD be true, so I share, hoping it'll bump into somebody who was there.

      • 2 votes
      #5.16 - Fri Sep 4, 2009 4:23 PM EDT
      Reply
      Darlene1005

      This is really good. I found this article by reading your Hagerstown one. I would have to stop seeding writing, washing clothes, cooking, and going to work just to read all that you write...(just kidding)...
      Don't ever stop.
      I have been to several of these places and never thought to ask reneactors questions. That is why you are a journalist and I "try" to write.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#6 - Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:03 PM EDT
      Scott (Scoop) Butki

      Darlene - I do try to slow down sometimes (like the last 48 hours) so people can catch up.

      :)

      • 3 votes
      #6.1 - Mon Jul 9, 2007 5:28 PM EDT
      Reply
      AdipicAcid

      Scott, we agree on many things, but this time around I'm going to shorten your points down to one pithy sentence:

      Act like a dick, expect to be treated as one.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#7 - Mon Jul 9, 2007 10:19 AM EDT
      Scott (Scoop) Butki

      Act like a dick, expect to be treated as one.

      That is quite pithy. Yeah I guess was being a bit dickish with some of those
      questions - especially 1 and 3 but I'd maintain the others are legit. questions just
      not well received.

      I try to ask the questions I figure others would wonder and that would include
      WHY do you like to dress up as a confederate and how DO you respond to those
      who think you're enjoying too much waving that confedrate flag, etc.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#8 - Mon Jul 9, 2007 12:20 PM EDT
      AdipicAcid

      I mean, I can't understand why they wouldn't answer my serious questions when I asked a few trolling ones first? Puh-lease. I understand how the "the war was not fought for slavery" idiots can get under your skin (and they do truly have an appalling lack of historical knowledge if they truly think that!), but if you had been a bit more respectful and thoughtful yourself, the interviews might just have turned out better.

      • 1 vote
      #8.1 - Mon Jul 9, 2007 12:26 PM EDT
      Scott (Scoop) Butki

      Oh maybe I was unclear. I did not ask all five questions in the same interview.

      Those were five questions asked at five different re-enactments.

      And I never actually asked the slave questin.

      I was not nearly as rude as this piece might suggest.

      Here, for example, is one of the resulting pieces.

      • 3 votes
      #8.2 - Mon Jul 9, 2007 12:40 PM EDT
      Scott (Scoop) Butki

      Battle draws a good crowd

      By SCOTT BUTKI

      scottb@herald-mail.com

      Tom Worthington had a unique view of the re-enactment of the Battle of Funkstown on
      Saturday morning. He watched the action through binoculars used by his great uncle in the
      original battle.

      When Worthington was young, his great uncle told him about the battle. He thought it
      would be interesting to use the binoculars Saturday, he said.

      "It's wonderful," he said, perched slightly above the intersection of East Baltimore
      Street and South High Street. From there he could see all the action.

      Worthington, of Cascade, was among an estimated 450 to 500 people who watched the morning
      street battle or the afternoon field battle, said Mayor Robert L. Kline, who provided the
      crowd estimate. Some watched both.

      Please turn to BATTLE, A3

      "It was really good. One of the best we have ever had," Kline said.

      A total of 481 soldiers were killed or wounded in the original Civil War battle, which
      began at 6 a.m. on July 10, 1863, and ended in early evening,

      Saturday there were more than 200 re-enactors, with more Confederate than Union troops,
      said event organizer Ron Benedict. The Confederates called the battle a victory for the
      South, Benedict said.

      During the first volley of fire there were no casualties.

      "Nobody's falling!" one spectator loudly noted.

      "They will," someone replied.

      Sure enough, the first "death" occurred minutes later as a Confederate soldier fell on
      his back in the middle of the street. He lay still for a minute, then adjusted his hat so
      it would better shade his face from the hot sun, then lay still again.

      Moments later he and another fallen soldier were moved to the sidewalks so other troops
      could pass. Before leaving them, their brothers-in-arms grabbed any live ammo the dead
      had.

      At the end of the re-enacted battle, which lasted about 30 minutes, the Union soldiers
      surrendered by aiming their guns at the ground.

      A soldier shouted, "Rise up," and all of the casualties were once again alive.

      Spectators watching the battle stood about 10 to 20 feet away from the soldiers. Some,
      including a child who was playing drums for the Confederate side, put fingers in their
      ears during each loud volley of fire.

      Vickie Henderson said Funkstown's is one of the better reenactments she has seen in this
      region precisely because of how close watchers can get to the action.

      "It was very good," she said.

      Irene Owens of Funkstown and her husband watch the battle each year from their porch.

      "It is wonderful," she said. "It brings back things you would never see ... a piece of
      history."

      After the battle, Benedict drank a can of soda while talking about the event. He lives in
      Frederick, Md., but used to live in Hagerstown.

      It is the 12th re-enactment of the battle, the ninth of which he has organized. The event
      drew more re-enactors than in some recent years, he said.

      The street battle, which was added about three years ago, is popular, he said.

      Some of the money from this year's re-enactment, collected from re-enactors, is going
      toward a fund to build a monument for the Battle of Funkstown, Benedict said.

      Donations can be sent to 6 Maryland Volunteer Infantry Funkstown Monument, 1234 Dahlia
      Lane, Frederick, MD, 21703.

      • 3 votes
      #8.3 - Mon Jul 9, 2007 1:05 PM EDT
      Reply
      Scott (Scoop) ButkiDeleted
      Life Tourist

      Yeah, I kind of figured you were being tongue-in-cheek Scott. Good stuff and nice article.

      Of course, slavery wasn't the only issue the war was fought over. We're not saying that, right? I was confused on that point. Obviously slavery was a big issue, but there were many other factors at play, including economic and social factors. Given all of these interlocked with slavery, but I can understand those who say it is not the only issue.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#10 - Mon Jul 9, 2007 1:36 PM EDT
      Scott (Scoop) Butki

      Life - Yes I know there are more issues than slavery at work but there are some, including these confederate reenactors, who were insisting slavery was a very minor issue in the war.
      Discussion of slavery, not to mention slaves, tend to be absent at these reneactments which I find interesting and telling. They want so bad to be historically accurate - so mcuh that I was serious about them building barns and bridges so they can burn them down - and then then leave out slaves and slavery.

      It'd be a bit like reenacting the war against Iraq but leaving out any mention of 9/11.

      • 7 votes
      #10.1 - Mon Jul 9, 2007 5:25 PM EDT
      Griff69

      It'd be a bit like reenacting the war against Iraq but leaving out any mention of 9/11.

      I'm disappointed, Scott. This doesn't seem like you. What research led you to this conclusion?

      • 1 vote
      #10.2 - Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:38 AM EST
      Scott (Scoop) Butki

      which part? That reenactors of the confederates downplay the race/slavery issue? That came from numerous interviews with reenactors. Or that the war in iraq was billed as a way to respond to the 9/11 attackers despite the fact the 9/11 attackers were not from Iraq. That came from reading and documentaries like Why We Fight.

      • 1 vote
      #10.3 - Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:54 AM EST
      Griff69

      If I'm now reading you correctly, you're pointing out that slavery was a politically expedient excuse used to justify the civil war, in much the same way that 9/11 was a politically expedient excuse used to justify the invasion of Iraq. I'd have to agree, although the difference is that 9/11 was used right up front as the excuse (along with those damned elusive WMDs), while slavery wasn't much used as the excuse until later.

      • 3 votes
      #10.4 - Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:02 AM EST
      Scott (Scoop) Butki

      ah i think you misread me but the fault for that is on my end.

      a better analogy would be that the fact the 9/11 attackers were not iraqis is something republicans and war supporters dont like to dwell on just as most reenactors i have interiewed don't like to dwell on the slavery/racial aspect of the war.

      I'd argue in both wars those are important details that are too often the elephant in the living room.

      I am skeptical that, as you say, slavery wasnt much used as an excuse until later given the comments before and during the war by lincoln and others that slavery was the issue driving a wedge.

       are you really saying you dont think slavery was a major issue in the civil war? or are you saying it was A issue but not THE issue? And if it was not the issue what was the main issue and if you say it was economic issues (as some reenactors have argued) id respond by noting slavery WAS an economy issue.

      • 2 votes
      #10.5 - Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:10 AM EST
      Griff69

      are you really saying you dont think slavery was a major issue in the civil war? or are you saying it was A issue but not THE issue?

      It was, clearly, AN issue, and I'm sure there were a number of abolitionists for whom it was THE issue; but to the Confederacy it was at best a minor issue. The writings of the time indicate that self-government was the main driving factor for most of the south.

      I am skeptical that, as you say, slavery wasnt much used as an excuse until later given the comments before and during the war by lincoln and others that slavery was the issue driving a wedge.

      But then again, Lincoln contradicted himself so often, you can find comments from him to support practically anything. He campaigned on the fact that states have the right to secede, and then turned around and waged a way to "prove" that they don't.

      • 1 vote
      #10.6 - Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:25 AM EST
      Scott (Scoop) Butki

      good point- i guess lincolns comments are like the bible or an ink blot- you can find in it anything you want. 

      wasnt one of the main reasons the south wanted selfgovernment because of the slavery issue, i.e. they wanted to have their own rules and laws?

      gotta run- offline for the next few hours

      • 1 vote
      #10.7 - Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:32 AM EST
      Griff69

      wasnt one of the main reasons the south wanted self government because of the slavery issue, i.e. they wanted to have their own rules and laws?

      I'm sure that was a hot issue for some southerners, likely those who owned slaves; but I'd have to ask, does it matter why they wanted self-government? We went to war with England and formed a new country so that we could govern ourselves, and then promptly forgot that self-government was the impetus for that... The simple truth is that slavery was already dying out because it wasn't economically viable. If slavery was really the diving force for DC, there were far simpler, less costly routes than war to rid ourselves of it.

      • 2 votes
      #10.8 - Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:17 PM EST
      Scott (Scoop) Butki

      What makes you think slavery "was already dying out"?

        #10.9 - Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:20 PM EST
        Griff69

        Numerous writings and statistics from the time, but I've got nothing with me now to quote. Among other issues, it was, by the start of the war, much cheaper to hire new immigrants for ridiculously low wages, and have no up front costs, and no ongoing food, clothing, and housing.

          #10.10 - Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:08 AM EST
          Reply
          Scott (Scoop) Butki

          A few related thoughts:

          The great part about being a journalist, the part I miss the most, is that whatever thought or question crosses my mind I can ask and odds are good they will respond. Sometimes the question can make me seem like a jerk - see above - but I know to save the question that could potentially end the interview until, well, the end.
          A question about an issue as thorny as race, "What do you think of the fact that of the 500 people here watching the reenactment not one appears to be any other race?" can well end the interview.

          And yet I'm sure I'm not the only who notices such things

          For example, these guys say they are doing "living history." Well, that's partially why I ask the question about slavery. Whether right or wrong many Americans were taught in schools that the war was over slavery. Yet you would not know that from attending those events. Why not? To not ask that is to avoid asking a question readers will wonder. But to ask it is to be potentially be a jerk.

          So I would seek the middle ground and ask the question in a polite way.

          One question I never asked that I really wanted to was this: Why do you think it is that more people want to play confederates than union soliders in reenactments? Is it because its the "bad guys" or is there more at work here?

          On the other hand I have tremendous respect for some of these peole who do the reenacting because they put a lot of time, energy and money into it. Many travel a circuit and go to a bunch of the events.

          • 3 votes
          Reply#11 - Mon Jul 9, 2007 5:29 PM EDT
          Tacitus13

          Whether right or wrong many Americans were taught in schools that the war was over slavery.

          "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause."

          ~Abraham Lincoln

          One question I never asked that I really wanted to was this: Why do you think it is that more people want to play confederates than union soliders in reenactments? Is it because its the "bad guys" or is there more at work here?

          Maybe more Southerners are interested in their history and heritage? Or maybe the Confederates were just more interesting overall and fought against the odds?

          • 1 vote
          #11.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 5:01 PM EST
          Wheel

          Why do you think it is that more people want to play confederates than union soliders in reenactments

          One of the things you must understand about most confederate fighters, they didn't own slaves, owning slaves was a rich man's thing, lots of 'poor white trash' didn't eat as well as slaves even, so they weren't fighting about slavery.

          They were fighting because yankee scum came onto their land, stole their chickens, ate their cattle and raped their women, and that's not even counting the indignities and injustices imposed on them after the war. In other words, when asked why he was fighting since he didn't own slaves, one confederate's reply was, "Because you're here!" That's why they fought and that's why a lot of these re-enactors won't wear a yankee uniform. And if you're ever in the south and see a cannon in someone's yard or something, pay attention, they're always pointed north.

          • 2 votes
          #11.2 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 5:30 PM EST
          Reply
          Troy Walker

          Dear Sir
          Having just read your article on American Civil war reenacting feel obliged to give you a little tip. For the ultimate in inaccuracy, both in historical information and uniforms not to mention down right blatant white bashing, one should go and see the Real Bird presentation of the Little Big Horn battle or "Custers last stand". I went over in 2006 from Tasmania, Australia as a Cavalry reenactor. After spending alot of money getting the uniforms correct for that period(1870's) and flying there, I arrive to find men in pony tails, jeans, cowboy hats and other assortments that look like a props department from a John Ford movie all being paraded in front of the general public as the real thing. Now being such a famous place alot of tourists are there (me included) and to have your history toutured like this was unbearable, but to have the Crow Indians (who incidentally worked for the U.S Army and got all the Sioux and Cheyanne lands after) denigrate the American people in front of this crowd I found apalling. If you can find the time next year go out to Montana and see this, it is worth the laugh. Me, well Iam going back next year to ride with an authentic group, there is just something real nice about being out in the plains of Montana.
          I wouldn't criticise too much those that wave the Southern stars and bars as I don't see them being the racists and bigots that the Indians, Negroes and Mexicans are that I saw when I was over there.

          • 3 votes
          Reply#12 - Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:39 PM EDT
          Tacitus13

          If you can find the time next year go out to Montana and see this, it is worth the laugh.

          I've always wanted to visit Little Bighorn Battlefield in June but I never knew they had a reenactment there. The articles I've read in the past said there was disagreement between the Custer supporters and Indian supporters (I would be in the latter camp.) Just how bad does the ill-will get in June? I'd really hate to have to defend Custer but I can play the devil's advocate when the need arises.

            #12.1 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 5:27 PM EST
            Reply
            Scott (Scoop) Butki

            First welcome to Newsvine. Looks like this is your first comment here and I'm honored.

            I'm not sure what you mean about this part:

            I wouldn't criticise too much those that wave the Southern stars and bars as I don't see them being the racists and bigots that the Indians, Negroes and Mexicans are that I saw when I was over there.

            • 3 votes
            Reply#13 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:02 PM EDT
            Bill Rafferty

            I had to wipe the spit off of the monitor after reading #4. I can't imagine why this would be a problem. satire

            • 1 vote
            Reply#14 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:14 PM EDT
            Scott (Scoop) Butki

            THat would be one I was wise (read not dickish enough) to actually ask.

            • 1 vote
            #14.1 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:50 PM EDT
            Reply
            Troy Walker

            G'day again, what I meant by that is the open hostility you get from these folks, Yeah I know some folks wave a flag and others get upset by it, but to villafy someone because their great grandfather may have owned them is rubbish. Isn't waving the Mexican flag a form of racism, or having your language printed every where because they can't be bothered learning English. Religeon is the greatest form of bigotry on the planet. We are getting alot now down under from the Muslims and the "new" immigrants from Sudan, Ethopia and other African states. All I was saying is that the flag waving is harmless and I don't see it as being racist at all. Thanks for the welcome here, will stay and chat with you folks later.
            Top

            • 3 votes
            Reply#15 - Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:15 PM EDT
            Scott (Scoop) Butki

            .
            I wouldn't criticise too much those that wave the Southern stars and bars as I don't see them being the racists and bigots that the Indians, Negroes and Mexicans are that I saw when I was over there.

            I've read your comment a few times in hopes that it did not read the way it does to me: racial stereotyping, to which I take great exception. I try to fight prejudice wherever I see it.

            Isn't waving the Mexican flag a form of racism,

            Not really. If someone waves an American flag while in Mexico would you call that racism?

            I think native americans have great reasons to hate white Americans as do african americans. Is it disturbing? Maybe. But uncalled for? Hardly. Are they blaming white Americans for sins of prior generations? Yes. Is that unfair? Somewhat but I can understand it.

            But I'd hardly equate that with white people waving a flag of a time when they owned some of those same types of people.

            to villafy someone because their great grandfather may have owned them is rubbish.

            I guess that depends on how you define "rubbish." If by "rubbish" you mean it makes no sense at all I'd say I disagree. I can totally see why blacks don't trust or like whites based on prior generations. If you mean it's unfair for the current whites to be blamed for the sins of their fathers then you have a point.

            Yes this does become somewhat contradictory and catch-22ish but I don't see it as "rubbish."

            • 3 votes
            Reply#16 - Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:49 PM EDT
            kenyon-1

            I live in Mexico and so do many other retired gringos. I have never seen an American flag displayed anywhere. We shoot fireworks off the cliffs over the ocean on the Fouth of July, but we don't want to offend our friends here by waving the flag of a foriegn country and stage parades like they do in SoCal.

            Sorry I got off topic but the above response got me here.

            • 1 vote
            #16.1 - Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:05 PM EDT
            Scott (Scoop) Butki

            Thanks for the info and clarification.

            • 1 vote
            #16.2 - Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:08 AM EDT
            Reply
            vacelts

            When you are in the south, there's a few things I would add:

            1. Never call it the Civil War. Down here they call it the war of Northern Aggression.

            2. Never suggest they should give it up because the North already won. I've had more than one group change the outcome a battle so that the south could win.

            3. If the North is allowed to win a battle, the Confederates will tell you it was a strategic victory for the South.

            I once knew a reenactor who owned his own cannon.

            It's a very strange call when you are planning a Civil War event (I'm a yankee who refuses to give into the northern aggression theory) and I guy asks you if you want him "to come shoot off his cannon." ;-)

            • 3 votes
            Reply#17 - Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:30 PM EST
            Scott (Scoop) Butki

            Is that a cannonball or are you just glad to.

            Good additions. I particularly like the "strategic victory" point.
            I'd always volunteer to cover reenactments because I just found them fascinating and particularly loved the contradictions, the guys in period clothing insisting they are completly historically accurate and they can start the battle just as soon as they finish texting the coordinates of the battle to a lost friend and taking a few digital photos.

            Did you ever read Tony Horowitz's book about re-enactors? I think it's called Confederates In the Attic.It's hilarious and brilliant. He is so funny he makes Bill Bryson seem about as funny as George Will.

            • 4 votes
            #17.1 - Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:19 PM EST
            vacelts

            No I've not read that book. I'll have to check it out. I'll have to think a little harder and come up with more stories of my own. Then I tackle the Scots (I was involved with the planning of a Scottish festival for three years -- think reenactors in kilts).

            • 3 votes
            #17.2 - Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:13 PM EST
            Wheel

            I don't know if you've noticed this, I know a few people with cannon replicas in their front yard, they must always point to the North.

            they can start the battle just as soon as they finish texting the coordinates of the battle to a lost friend and taking a few digital photos.

            Being out of period is called "farbing" by re-enactors.

            by the way, I'm southern and Scots-Irish. :P

            • 3 votes
            #17.3 - Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:02 AM EDT
            Scott (Scoop) Butki

            I don't know if you've noticed this, I know a few people with cannon replicas in their front yard, they must always point to the North.

            they can start the battle just as soon as they finish texting the coordinates of the battle to a lost friend and taking a few digital photos.
            Being out of period is called "farbing" by re-enactors.

            by the way, I'm southern and Scots-Irish. :P

            I'm currently interviewing Tony Horwitz, the author of Confederates In The Attic. I asked him how I did with my list. He said

            What kind of reaction have you received from those you have written about? I'm particularly curious about reaction to Confederates In the Attic since you wrote in there about Civil War reenactors including those at Antietam and Gettysburg, both of which are in my backyard. You can never please all readers and I've occasionally gotten angry responses from those I've written about. While most reenactors I've spoken to enjoyed Confederates, and felt it accurately portrayed living history, some hardcores felt I was making fun of them (I was, of course, but of myself as well, and felt I was sympathetic while gently ribbing reenactors). I also got heat from extreme Southern nationalists who resent any suggestion that the Confederacy was misguided or that remembrance of it may offend others.

            I wrote a llist of things you should never say to a Civil War reenactor. Would you like to suggest any other things you should not say? Your list hits the high points. To be safe, never call someone a reenactor, say living history. Also just "hardcore" not hardcore reenactor

            • 1 vote
            #17.4 - Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:00 PM EDT
            Reply
            SteveHouse

            Avoid asking them if in order to be truly authentic they each have their own set of slaves.

            (Cue cliched American drink-spit reaction)
            Now that's funny.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#18 - Tue Jul 8, 2008 5:25 PM EDT
            Scott (Scoop) Butki

            That would be one of the questions I didn't actually try out for fear of being killed.

            • 1 vote
            #18.1 - Tue Jul 8, 2008 11:07 PM EDT
            Reply
            Jimi M

            This article reminded of a South Park episode when Cartman tried to reverse the outcome of the war.
            They had some fun things to say about re-enactors .

            • 3 votes
            Reply#19 - Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:17 PM EDT
            Scott (Scoop) Butki

            This article reminded of a South Park episode when Cartman tried to reverse the outcome of the war.
            They had some fun things to say about re-enactors .

            Ha. I remember that one. Let me note I wrote this before that. That show's pottie humor

            that reminds me: I'm pretty sure they did not have port-a-potties back during the Civil War.

            • 2 votes
            #19.1 - Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:21 PM EDT
            Reply
            Nancy-400923

            Hehehehehehe....don't mess with the south.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#20 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 10:25 AM EST
            Scott (Scoop) Butki

            I'm with the historians and re-enactors on this one. No big surprise as I'm not a fan of wal-mart.
            What's your take? Does capitalism trump history?

            • 1 vote
            Reply#21 - Sat Jan 3, 2009 11:53 AM EST
            Lisa-994358

            One question I never asked that I really wanted to was this: Why do you think it is that more people want to play confederates than union soliders in reenactments? Is it because its the "bad guys" or is there more at work here.

            It all depends upon WHERE you go to a reenactment really. In the south you have an abundance of Confederates whereas up north they have the exact opposite issue.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#22 - Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:37 PM EDT
            Scott (Scoop) Butki

            Oh I've never seen any reenactment that lacked for people wanting to be the confederates. I think it's because it's being "bad" - same reason some get tattoos or wear leather or start smoking (forgive the blanket generalizations) - besides if barbie can have a tattoo...

            • 1 vote
            #22.1 - Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:57 PM EDT
            Pete Boyd

            Are you serious? It's because everyone wants to be the GOOD guys!

            • 1 vote
            #22.2 - Tue Sep 1, 2009 2:51 PM EDT
            Scott (Scoop) Butki

            i was only half-serious

              #22.3 - Fri Sep 4, 2009 2:45 PM EDT
              Reply
              MoonCrow

              I live smack dab in the middle of the battlefields of Chancellorsville, Wilderness, Fredericksburg, Spotsylvania Courthouse, Brandy Station, Cedar Mountain, and Slaughterhouse just to name a few. We LOVE reenactors around here; love their passion for depicting history; and admire their commitment to carrying out the reenactment in all kinds of weather. But then, I'm southern, a proud descendant of Confederate soldiers, and I was raised on the tales about Northern aggression. :-)

              • 5 votes
              Reply#23 - Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:46 PM EDT
              robertlyn-schultz

              Hey Scott,

              I am constantly surprised by the articles that pop-up on my tracker from you, and always pleasantly I might add, this one is no different. I dated a girl in GA way back when, and her daddy was a very active reenactor, boy did he know his C.W. history and he was alaways happy to talk about his views about why the war started (not because of slavery, but trade issues and such) and the raw deal the south got in the reconstruction.

              I wrote an article a while back about reenactments of 10th century viking life, something I would be interested in pursuing myself, when I get financially stable.

              I hope that you are settling into you new TX surroundings, have you acquired a TX sized firearm yet? X^)

              All my best my friend,

              Aloha

              • 2 votes
              Reply#24 - Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:49 PM EDT
              Scott (Scoop) Butki

              have not bought a weapon but am intrigued that there are signs in libraries and restaurants reminding people to essentailly not shoot each other inside and, even better, leave their guns outside.

              • 3 votes
              #24.1 - Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:17 AM EDT
              Unicorn*

              Maybe you should interview a few people about that [grin]

              Might want to prepare ahead of time and try the questions out on someone you have confirmed is not currently holding a fire arm. o.0

              • 2 votes
              #24.2 - Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:11 AM EDT
              Scott (Scoop) Butki

              great advice

              • 1 vote
              #24.3 - Sat Sep 5, 2009 11:08 AM EDT
              Reply
              Pete Boyd

              In its most elementary terms, the war happened because Lincoln wanted it and because the powers that be in SC were so short-tempered they could not refrain from taking the bait. SC should have blockaded Ft Sumter, not fired upon it. However, given that no one was injured by the firing on Ft Sumter, Lincoln's response to invade another country seems a bit extreme.

              • 2 votes
              Reply#25 - Tue Sep 1, 2009 3:12 PM EDT
              Sitafa Harden

              Reminds me of when I was in 5th grade and I won a local essay contest sponsored by the Daughters of the American Revolution. I actually got to go read my essay at the renactment ceremony. I'll never forget that. Sometimes karma is marvelous. Priceless!

              • 1 vote
              Reply#26 - Fri Sep 4, 2009 3:11 PM EDT
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