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Visit Scott (Scoop) Butki's column >>

SCOTT (SCOOP) BUTKI

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A cynical idealist; To Read Me Is to Know Me (Mostly)
Articles Posted: 1426  Links Seeded: 10249
Member Since: 2/2007  Last Seen: 5/16/2012

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How My Position On the Death Penalty Wavered

Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:35 PM EDT
us-news, lvs0407, sbutki-memoir, cop-reporter
By Scott (Scoop) Butki
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After graduating from college in 1991 I worked as a newspaper reporter in Southern California. Often the newspaper's sole reporter I covered a variety of beats. Looking back on the work, though, the stories I remember the best are the ones I covered as a police reporter. On that beat you see the best and worst of people - well, more often the latter - and are left with memories, some good and some bad. This is part of a series of memoir pieces I'm writing about some of those events, thoughts and emotions.

It has been said that a conservative is a liberal who got mugged. I thought about that saying after covering a murder trial and sentencing for a serial killer.

I'd read arguments on both sides of the capital punishment argument and I knew where I stood. I was a good liberal - I'd quote Mahatma Gandhi at the drop of a conservative speaker's hat. I did speeches on the issues and probably annoyed my parents with my rantings on the matter.

But after seeing the death penalty actually being considred, as I covered murder trials for the Hemet News, that I began to question things... a process I'm still continuing to this day.

There was a man in Riverside County named William Suff. He was accused of murdering 13 prostitutes. It took the county 18 months to figure out who the serial killer was. It turned out he was a county employee. There was a lovely picture of him on a county newsletter, praising him for carpooling.

I grew up fascinated by mysterials. And legal thrillers. With a copy of my latest Robert Parker or Scott Turow I'd sometimes go by the courthouse on the way to work. Who wants to cover a city council meeting when a crime hearing that is somehow related to that town is going on?

After some pleading, my editor said I could cover portions of the Suff trial. After all, one of the victims was from the area. But I also had to cover my usual government beat.

I thought that by seeing people like Suff, people doing deeds that seemed like pure evil, I could better understand people. But if there are people of pure evil, then where did that leave ideas like rehabilitation?

And what about people I'd later cover like Dora Buenrostro, who would stab to death her three children, blame the crimes on her husband and then scream in the middle of a courtroom that there were snakes coming right at her? The court said she was mentally competent to stand trial.The prosecutor said the crimes came about because of passion and jealousy.

Is this the best way to understand human weaknesses? I wondered. I'm not sure now. I just know I had some sleepless nites then.
The first and the last days were the worst, both to watch and to describe in print.

On the first day of the Suff trial they began showing photos of the victims. I guess they wanted to shock the jury with his callousness of his actions. I was sitting between two elderly couples. figured they were families of the victims but I didn't ask them.

In thinking and writing about war crimes and torture the other day the way I put it is this: "We should not use extreme circumstances, real or imaginary, to make policy decisions or take ultimate stands on a complicated issues. Better to make those decisions in unemotional circumstances."

I still think that makes sense. But who would I tell these relatives, who seem to be almost blood-thirsty in their quest for revenge, that they should wait until calmer times to stake out a position on the issue? I can't. Can you?

If I had to try to sum up what I learned it is this - taking absolute positions is easy, provided you don't have to actually test those positions in sticky emotional situations like this one.

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  • Public Discussion (30)
DamianKD

Good read.

Looks like you copied and pasted the same section twice, though.

  • 1 vote
Reply#1 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:59 PM EDT
Shalla

Good article

If I had to try to sum up what I learned it is this - taking absolute positions is easy, provided you don't have to actually test those positions in sticky emotional situations like this one.

Oh so true.

  • 2 votes
Reply#2 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:20 PM EDT
Scott (Scoop) Butki

Just goes to prove my point that if you read and edit too much after a while you can't spot your own
errors.

Fixed the error. Thanks, Damian

Thanks, Shalla.

Oh and this is my latest Last Viner Standing entry

  • 2 votes
Reply#3 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:25 PM EDT
firsty

But who would I tell these relatives, who seem to be almost blood-thirsty in their quest for revenge, that they should wait until calmer times to stake out a position on the issue? I can't. Can you?

yes, i can. let me know how when who and where.

it's pretty simple. the most enlightening views are those which are intentionally disconnected from emotion. there is a reason that modern judicial systems dont have the victims' familes serve on juries or as the judge. emotion is a cloud, not a microscope.

while one can certainly understand the desire for revenge, etc., that understanding does not require agreement. i can understand why people get upset in these situations, and i would be, as well. it's at those times in our lives when we need strength and support. usually, with time and a sense of calm, we can see things better.

think of it this way — when at work, we often get emails which drive us crazy. what is the most commonsense way of dealing with this? walking away. turning off the email application. come back to it later, devoid of emotion.

it's a simple concept, and the finality of death obviously creates an even more muddied reality, but it doesnt change things. the last people who should be influencing justice are those who are still feeling the visceral pain of the crime. without that, we're the same as animals in the jungle.

  • 7 votes
Reply#4 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:11 PM EDT
newbroom

while one can certainly understand the desire for revenge

We victims are counseled to refer to this as closure by the more insidious death penalty advocate.

  • 1 vote
#4.1 - Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:49 PM EDT
Reply
Forest Browne

Scoop...it's most certainly a difficult question and fraught with emotion and logical fallacies. After 48 years of thinking about it I came up with a logical paradigm that i just can't get around. I'll put it to you in as simple a way as possible.

If the state, or government states that it's against the law to murder, than the intellectual fallacy falls and chokes any thought of the state committing murder as a penalty.

If it's against the law to murder than HOW can the state murder?

It makes no logical sense and no matter how hard I try I just can't justify it in any type of logical fashion. Kind of like teaching your children by saying "Do as I say, Not as I do".

Food for thought,

Forest

  • 5 votes
Reply#5 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:12 PM EDT
Scott (Scoop) Butki

Right. I think the way I put it in speeches in college was, "If it's wrong to kill then why is it ok to kill in order to teach that killing is wrong." That usually blew everyone's minds.

Inevitably someone would quote "An eye for an eye" to which I had a ready response of Ghandi's: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

But that's all easier to say and believe when you're not interviewing a mother of a girl torn to pieces by a serial killer who wants to know why he should not suffer a fate worse than life in prison (if such a term even truly exists anymore)

  • 4 votes
#5.1 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:37 PM EDT
Forest Browne

Exactly pal...if it was my daughter killed I'd probably try and move heaven and earth to have him blasted off this planet. But from an intellectual standpoint it's almost impossible to justify.

Good article,

Forest

  • 3 votes
#5.2 - Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:47 PM EDT
Scott (Scoop) Butki

Thanks, Forest. It's a very tough issue but then I like to try to think about such things. Maybe I'm just weird that way.

  • 1 vote
#5.3 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:35 PM EDT
Reply
jpark

The death penalty is always a difficult subject. I have always believed that any organized society (one with a governmental structure) has a duty to protect the innocent from monsters. Whether that protection comes from permanent incarceration or death, the duty remains. In fact, were I faced with permanent incarceration, I would find death the more humane treatment.

Nevertheless, as a juror, I would have difficulty voting for the death penalty. Why? Not because I would feel guilty for disposing of a human who took pleasure in torture/murder of others, but because our legal system exempts portions of the population from that penalty.

I've always felt strongly that any law that doesn't apply to all citizens should apply to none.

If placed on a jury where a the atrocities you mention were committed, I really don't know how I would deal with this conflict.

  • 4 votes
Reply#6 - Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:00 PM EDT
Eliza-143345

As a European, the popularity of the death penalty in the us always surprises me. The mere thought of it seems barbaric. For example, for a state to be eligible to join the EU, it must not have the death penalty.

I particularly agree with Scott "Scoop" Butki's comments above. I also think it's important to believe in redemption - which necessarily excludes the death penalty. Also, it has not be proven to act as a detterent to crime. Another important issue in this matter is that of the error of law; it's not uncommon that people have been sentenced for crimes they did not commit - on a number of occasions dna-testing has told the real story, sometimes when it's already been too late.

  • 2 votes
Reply#7 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:54 PM EDT
Eliza-143345

sorry - me again - just to clarify: i mean agree with scott's comments in 5.1

  • 1 vote
#7.1 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:59 PM EDT
jpark

The death penalty is barbaric. So is incarceration indefinitely.

The only valid arguments for the death penalty in my opinion are:
1) The cruelty of indefinite incarceration.
2) The cost of keeping someone caged for the rest of their life.
3) There is no guarantee that someone with even multiple life sentences will actually be kept caged till the end of his/her life.

Releasing torture/murderers to prey again on society is also barbaric.

  • 1 vote
#7.2 - Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:23 PM EDT
Scott (Scoop) Butki

For example, for a state to be eligible to join the EU, it must not have the death penalty

I had never heard that. Can you provide a link that backs that up?

  • 1 vote
#7.3 - Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:37 AM EDT
Eliza-143345

Scott, see
It's also mentioned on Wikipedia;

  • 1 vote
#7.4 - Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:42 PM EDT
Eliza-143345

scott - sorry,not having much luck with my links (made new attempt below), newsvine outsmarted me... anyway, just do a google search for "eu abolishing death penalty" or similar and you will find plenty.

jpark - though your arguments are interesting, they are in my opinion not valid reasons for the death penalty.

1 - sure, indefinite incarceration is cruel. however that does not justify the death penalty, which is also cruel. and, like you point out in 3), a life sentence is often not for life in practice. this is not necessarily a bad thing.
2. very true. still it does not justify executing someone. if it's all about the money, there are many people that would be more cost-efficient to have dead than alive, not just murderers.

  • 2 votes
#7.5 - Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:59 PM EDT
newbroom

as in the poor folk in N.O. at the 'hands' of Katrina and inefficiency. :~(

  • 1 vote
#7.6 - Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:32 PM EDT
Reply
Forest Browne

It reminds me of when the US was one of the last western powers to eliminate slavery, same deal different issue. At times it seems that we're a rather backwards country, last to see the light.

Forest

  • 4 votes
Reply#8 - Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:29 AM EDT
newbroom

one of the last western powers to eliminate slavery

oh, but have we?...or have we merely placed it offshore? along with the profits derived.
One of the reasons for our hesitance might be biblical.

  • 1 vote
#8.1 - Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:43 PM EDT
Reply
Eliza-143345

scott - sorry, since i'm a new newsvine member i can't put html links in comments. anyway, just add the usual characters to these:
and

  • 1 vote
Reply#9 - Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:44 PM EDT
wmolaw

A really fascinating subject. So many different takes on it. I am against the death penalty, but not because it is "cruel and unusual," for we really don't know if it is or not.

I am against the death penalty as I am a firm believer in limited government, very limited government, and I don't like the idea of the government, any government, having the ability to murder one of its own.

But, I also know there is evil and I also know that, even if small, there is a chance of an evil person escaping prison, the way prisons are currently operated.

So, as I have expressed before, I have come up with my "red button" solution. A person convicted of a heinous crime is placed into a cell, no windows, no tv, no books, a cot and a pot, and a red button on the wall. His food is pushed through the door, no face to face communication. Lawyers talk through the door (a slit) to communicate with their client. And there he or she stays, until he or she gets very tired of that way of life. If they get tired enough, they can press the red button and the room instantly fills with an odorless, colorless, but lethal gas that puts them to sleep, then causes them to shuffle off this mortal coil.

Simple, effective, inexpensive.

As for our current death penalty, the only thing I can say about it is that it is a SPECIFIC deterrence, that is, THAT person will never commit a crime again. I don't believe it is a general deterrence and I don't believe the death penalty should be used for revenge.

  • 2 votes
Reply#10 - Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:33 AM EDT
jpark

Interesting solution.

  • 2 votes
#10.1 - Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:11 AM EDT
wmolaw

Well, it does several things.

1. It truly minimizes the ability of a prisoner to escape,
2. It allows an innocent person to continue to hold onto hope, continue to try to prove his innocence,
3. It takes away from the government, the right to murder its citizens,

Frankly, I have never really seen how a person, for example, that is against abortion can be for capital punishment, though they are clearly two different issues, sanctity of life is sanctity of life.

  • 2 votes
#10.2 - Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:37 AM EDT
jpark

Abortion is one of those issues where everyone seems to think there is only an either/or choice. For example, I think abortion as a method of birth control is wrong, since there are effective ways to prevent pregnancy which don't require killing someone. I also find it distasteful to deliver a baby 95%, then bash its head in and suck the brains out. But I also know there are very good reasons for abortion -- and early abortions are more acceptable than late ones.

As noted in my above post, if there is a effective way to incarcerated monsters to protect society with no possibility of release, I find that as effective as execution in protecting society. But I find protection of society more important than keeping a monster alive.

Your solution, if it prevented release, would be even better. I find indefinite incarceration to be worse than execution. You would let the monster decide, which should satisfy most everyone.

  • 2 votes
#10.3 - Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:13 PM EDT
wmolaw

Seems to me it should take care of most people's objections, though it is fascinating how many people call me a troglodyte when I mention it.

  • 1 vote
#10.4 - Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:33 PM EDT
Scott (Scoop) Butki

Well, it does sound more humane than most forms of capital punishment. It reminds me of how jails take away belts and ties from prisoners because god forbid if one should kill oneself BEFORE it's time for the jail to kill the person instead.

  • 2 votes
#10.5 - Mon May 7, 2007 11:13 AM EDT
wmolaw

I always thought that was bizarre, but I suppose there are good reasons for it.

The fact is that this type of solution needs some predicates. Legalization of drugs, etc.

We need to get the non-violent criminals out of the jails, period.

  • 1 vote
#10.6 - Mon May 7, 2007 3:01 PM EDT
Reply
Scott (Scoop) ButkiDeleted
Scott (Scoop) Butki

I think this judge has the right idea.

    Reply#12 - Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:09 PM EDT
    indica

    I think repeat rapists and paedophiles should be subject to the death penalty.

    I have no sympathy for those who destroy the lives of others for pleasure.

    I don't care what happened in their past to drive them to that.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#13 - Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:08 PM EDT
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